this post was submitted on 18 Feb 2025
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“Tony Stark was able to build this in a cave! With a box of scraps!” That’s what Jeff Bridges bellows about Robert Downey Jr. in the first Iron Man movie. And, for a while, it was that scrappy, improvisational Stark-like energy that made Marvel Studios special. Across three “phases” of filmmaking, Marvel combined the backbone of good superhero storytelling (likable characters, exciting action, cool special effects, compelling plots, a fun sense of humor) with the true secret sauce of the genre: meaningful storytelling themes.

Lately, however, it’s as if Marvel has forgotten that superhero stories are actually supposed to have ideas. Marvel has moved from the Age Of Heroes to the Age Of Aimless Intersecting Content. That philosophy reaches its nadir in the latest big-screen addition to the MCU, Captain America: Brave New World—a film that continues the “what are we doing here?” trend of recent Marvel projects like Ant-Man And The Wasp: Quantumania and Secret Invasion.

It wasn’t always like this. Marvel once understood what filmmakers like Richard Donner and Sam Raimi long ago proved: More than any other genre, superhero stories are built around archetypal characters engaging in ideological battles meant to reflect something larger about the human condition. That means they need driving central themes to elevate their sometimes-thin individual components into something greater than the sum of their parts.

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[–] tiramichu@lemm.ee 11 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago) (11 children)

All movies have a story. This happens, then that happens, then that happens. That's a story.

But IMO, what often separates a good story from a dull one are the thematic elements.

The theme is the big narrative idea into which everything else slots. It drives the plot. It defines the character's motivations and creates stakes. It creates tension and makes character's actions feel like they have purpose.

We need a great story, but good story comes from solid themes.

[–] adam_y@lemmy.world 5 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (3 children)

Sure mate, I mean Stephen King says this:

. . . starting with the questions and thematic concerns is a recipe for bad fiction. Good fiction always begins with story and progresses to theme; it almost never begins with theme and progresses to story”

But what does he know?

[–] tiramichu@lemm.ee 6 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (2 children)

Fair points. If we are quoting King then he also said in "On Writing" just a paragraph or so after your quote:

"But once your basic story is on paper you need to think about what it means. [...] To do less is to rob your work (and eventually your readers) of the vision that makes each tale you write uniquely your own."

I may not have been right in saying the story /comes/ from the theme, but I very much stand by the notion that solid themes are required, even if the theme does not come first.

King also said:

Not every book has to be loaded with symbolism [...] but it seems to me that every book - at least every one worth reading - is about something. Your job during or just after the first draft is to decide what something or somethings yours is about."

As the story is written and progresses, conscious work is needed to refine the theme and draw it out, and good works always are about something that is bigger and richer than the basic story beats.

To the original argument on superhero movies then, the writer's opinion that we need good themes is still something I very much agree with.

But then, good story and characters are extremely important as the prerequisite, because a strong theme without a strong foundation is nothing.

[–] adam_y@lemmy.world 2 points 3 days ago

Which is to say that absolutely, you are right that theme is important because ultimately theme is context.

I do wonder how much of this belongs, not to the creator, but to the viewer/reader.

There's that great example with Ray Bradbury telling people that Fahrenheit 451 was not about fascism until someone pointed out to him how it absolutely was.

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