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AOC supports what’s going on in Gaza? lol. Wut.
She literally just voted against throwing more money at the Iron Dome.
Didn't she literally vote against the MTG amendment that stripped all funding from Israel?
See, that's how the propaganda works. She voted against the MTG amendment that stripped a tiny tiny fraction of the funding from Israel. Which was always going to fail, pretty much unanimously, because MTG. And then, when the whole bill (with whole funding for Israel) came to the floor, she voted against it. And also, separate bills which are just for funding Israel in the past
But it's been consistently presented to you with wording that makes it sound like she had a chance to strip all funding from Israel, and she decided not to. Search "horseshit" in this comments section, it's a little complicated, but basically, no she literally didn't vote against what you described.
So she should have voted symbolically for it like the five Democrats who did?
I don't care how much money it takes away from Israel they deserves no money while it's committing a genocide.
I'll just copy and paste.
For the uninitiated: MTG's amendment left intact the funding for offensive weapons, but cut the funding for defensive weapons for Israel. So there is literally no way AOC could win. Leaving aside the fact that it was a kooky MTG amendment that was never going to pass in the first place... If she voted for the amendment, then everyone who is currently screaming that she's a fake leftist who supports genocide could say "See? SHE VOTED FOR KEEPING ISRAEL'S FUNDING INTACT, SHE SUPPORTS GENOCIDE!" Since she voted against it, they are currently screaming "See? SHE VOTED AGAINST DEFUNDING ISRAEL, SHE SUPPORTS GENOCIDE!"
It's just more can't-win, let's-eat-the-leftest-person-because-we're-super-leftist-I-promise horseshit.
Edit: Here's AOC voting against funding for Israel, in bills that were actually non-Hobson's-choice opportunities to vote against aid for Israel:
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/biden-meets-with-aoc-in-wake-of-her-vote-against-military-aid-for-israel/
And her voting against the actual funding bill providing aid to Israel (both offensive and defensive): https://clerk.house.gov/Votes/2025212
I was going to link to those from my comment above, but I guess my brain malfunctioned before I got to it. I've said the exact same thing on this topic a sufficient number of times that it's like I'm getting that World War 1 disorder where you can't pull a trigger anymore because the weight of doing it over and over is insupportible.
I don't care what's politically expedient. I don't care what's politically acceptable.
I care about my Representatives standing up for what's morally acceptable.
Continuing to give any sort of funds to a state committing genocide is tangential support of that genocide.
I do not care that AOC has also voted down other Israel funding bills when she has been consistent on funding the Iron Dome.
I do not care about her preconceived notions about how this would leave "Israelis defenseless". Israel is entirely surrounded by US military bases on all sides and is capable of manufacturing the Iron Dome missiles.
Israel would simply need to use the $9 million already allocated to them ( for their genocide) instead of the $500 million of United States taxpayer money so that they can continue to be the most belligerent Empire in the Middle East.
Edit:
As you pointed out this vote was never going to win and so was symbolic. This would have been an easy win with her constituents with how unpopular Israel currently is instead she is currently doubling down and accusing people of being fake leftists for criticizing her position.
Unfortunately she seems to have lost the plot
I feel like you've been infected at this point, and can't really grasp what I'm trying to explain here.
She has not been consistent on funding the Iron Dome. She has been consistent, as far as I know, about trying to defund US aid for Israel in any way she can. This whole thing is a weird and stupid blowing-up of one isolated vote of a stupid amendment proposed by the worst person in congress that was never going to pass, and then a pretty dumb way she chose to explain it.
When has she ever voted, previous to this, to give funding for the Iron Dome? Or did you just make up this "consistency" randomly on the spot because it fit in with the ginned-up stuff you'd already seen about this one particular weird blown-up situation?
Just so you know I am the one @dastanktal@lemmy.ml was having that elections debate on. Unfortunately they are just very privileged and can afford to just wait until a perfect candidate shows up. I don't think they are wrong when they see something gross in the DNC and not want to be a part of it, but [class] war is by its nature very dirty. I have to say I am lucky to be white and not hunted down by ICE. I am lucky to not be cold and hungry because the IDF is placing my city under siege. Still I would vote for AOC because slowing down the funding for those things does help the most vulnerable. Ideally we are all on the same page: to just end this. Until we actually build a movement that materially produces policy and cultural change at every level of society we have to do settle for living to fight another day. I am afraid that Tanktal just isn't serious about the material conditions of those affected by neglecting elections.
Wow. You're such an asshole. PhilipTheBucket is more then capable of checking my profile and seeing what I have been up too.
Can't handle the smoke in the other thread so your going through my history to warn others from talking to me?
You're the idiot that thinks electoralism is the be all end all and refuses to admit that its not the most important front or not a very important one. This is not just my opinion but is the opinion of most anarchist and marxists.
This is such pathetic loser behavior. I thought you were better than this but guess not.
Because you are very polite. Notice I never said anything negative of your leftist positions. We are on the same side. I am just asking you to beware that this is important and that your actions on that front have material consequences for many of us. You basically are like the shit libs from the rachet effect meme that keep progress from happening. If you don't vote you are stopping it from happening.
As are you evidentially.
Its funny thats what you chose to screencap because I am clearly being sarcastic.
As far as the rachet effect I see you as the reason the democrats won't veer left since your ilk will always vote them in regardless of their position.
I will not vote between 99% hitler and 95% hitler. I am going to vote for "Not Hitler" and then encourage everyone to do the same and to not waste time trying to change a party that would offer "95% hitler" instead of a "Not Hitler"
Again, you are privileged that you can ignore politics. And you are right that its gross and messy, but that is the reality of [class] war. Get used to it soldier.
It's not privilege it's realism.
It's not a privilege to know that no matter how I vote that It ultimately isn't going to affect anything and that things have to be done locally through local organizations to help your community.
It is waste of any time on electoralism other than "go vote"
Sorry you can't spare an evening every year comrade. And it is privileged that you can ignore politics that way. A privileged very few of us is afforded.
Have you not seen that I have conceded the point that people should at least go vote?
Is that not what you want? Or do you want people to vote a very specific way and then if you do how much energy should people spend trying to accomplish that? And finally how would this attempt to be any different from any of the other attempts that we've done the last 20 plus years that were not effective
And yet you keep commenting to discourage people to do so. Would you call me out if I said no to show up to a meeting on organizing a garden because its not going to feed everyone? You would (and should)
I simply Advocate that people shouldn't waste their time advocating for the Democrats or trying to convince people to vote. There are other places where our time is better utilized actually helping our community rather than wasting our breath on a political group that does not care about us and will not save us.
As far as your example it's more like a group deciding they want to grow lemons in Colorado to feed the homeless and me doing my best to Advocate they don't do that because it's a literal waste of time.
And I am not. I am saying we need to vote for progressives where possible, and harm reduction where our options are more limited.
Do you want to screenshot where I said that this is not important? And you will never have a political group to help you and expand your efforts because you are not building one. And you are making life difficult for your allies by not doing so, what does that say about your support in the fight in the class war?
Tankies are not serious people.
Yes they should vote for the most radical candidate that will bring the most benefit to workers regardless of the party.
You keep saying that electoralism is one of the most important fronts for the class war.
I'd be very happy to go pull it out of a screenshot for you.
I disagree. I think electoralism should be practiced only in so far as we can get something pragmatically out of it. This of course would mean advocating for people like Zohran Mamdani but also be willing to call him out for playing to corporate interests over those of the community. Frankly I'm super excited for him to get elected. It's going to be a wonderful example of the ineffectiveness of electoralism to actually get anything done. And if I'm wrong that's even better because the material conditions actively get better for people.
Currently I don't think we'll get anything out of the Democrats. I don't think they'll roll back any of the Trump changes and it would just be a pause before the next fascist Administration rolls in.
Liberals have no idea where to put in their time and effort when it comes to making changes politically and it shows throughout this entire thread. You know you should at least read the commie books since they have a ton of information on how to properly organize a community and how to utilize their local power including when to use electoralism.
So what about that statement negates the importance of other fronts?
100% agree and the only way you will is to engage with it and build out the critical mass of progressives; which we have not done.
Says the guy that would rather spend an afternoon buying a jacket to insult fellow allies than to vote to help our causes. Like i said it is just one [important] front in the class war. And again, voting helps minimize the hostility you will get from city hall and state capital; which gives you more room for your local organizing. You might be privileged and unaffected, but your comrades are and you keeps saying you won't do it for them.
I get why you feel the DNC is gross; notice I never said the contrary? Still war is uncomfortable comrade, be a trooper and pull your weight in the fight. Sometimes that means you get to elect a progressive. Sometimes it means harm reduction. PLA had a famous retreat not a grand stand. You need to live to fight another day not surrender because the ideal outcome is not happening tomorrow. We are counting on you and you are letting us down with your rhetoric and behavior.
That was a good play trying to tug on my heartstrings with the PLA except they're not actually a good model to replicate in the Quest for liberation. Nice try though.
It would have been better for you to quote Lenin.
You still can't let the sarcastic comment about a jacket go. Besides I would not waste my time buying a jacket I would make my own. I am a proud communist after all.
Being pragmatic about voting is not the same as investing time into electoralism. Being pragmatic about voting means voting in the working class candidate always regardless of their chance of winning. Or voting in a policy that will help uplift the working class. Thats it.
You should spend literally no more time than that on voting.
You should not waste your time trying to create policies or trying to push them through the parliamentarian process. It is a Fool's errand and a waste of time. Attempting to push policy through that will benefit the working class against the capitalistic interest is basically just a waste of time, money, and energy. The capitalist literally built the system so that it would not work that way and it could not be used against them in that way. Something that Rosa Luxembourg addresses in her book reform or revolution.
If your local organization wants a certain person to win then yes they obviously should spend some time on electoralism. Probably about 10% of their time doing some sort of propaganda for their chosen candidate. The rest of the time they should be doing other much more useful things like collecting donations to feed the hungry in their community, or finding beds and shelters that are open for the homeless folk in their community, or educating the masses on communist Theory so that they gain class consciousness.
These are the things we should be focused on not getting people elected. Thus electoralism is not a major front at all and hardly worth considering when faced with the other monumental tasks that must be done in order to facilitate the rise of a working class party.
My point with it is that they were an underdog group with increasingly limited options, and they believed in what they were doing. They did what they needed to to pull ahead, and it was uncomfortable.
You don't go to war with the army you want, nor the partners you want. You go with what you have and make due. Make of that metaphor what you need for elections and why minimizing harm is important. If you are not willing to soldier on for that; then you are not helping us win the class war. That makes you not very serious. The alt right has upped the ante several times now and you are still not sure about what you really want to do, or if you can spare an evening to vote and help others outside of your state and county.
Like I said. I get why you are unhappy about the lesser evil, but you are leaving many of your fellow socialists and lefties out to hang and be defeated in detail. The NYC elections are exiting, but we need more than just islands of progressivism.
I have pointed out numerous times how this strategy is just a repeat of the same electoral strategy that radical liberals have been engaging in for the better part of 20 years.
This is clearly not a winning strategy. You're not being pragmatic you're being insane because you continue to do the same thing expecting a different result while watching our government inch closer to fascism.
Pragmatically voting for minimizing harm means voting in the most working class candidate possible because that's what we should all do regardless of party and vote for the most Progressive policies to uplift Working Class People. Anything past that is generally a waste of time.
If there's a candidate a particular group is interested in sure they could spend some of their time doing electoral politics but they have additional responsibilities they have to do which are far more important and then spreading the propaganda of whatever candidate they're trying to get voted in.
Like I said before education is incredibly important to help build the working class party and an educated working class would vote for the working class candidate regardless of party.
To your point you don't get to pick who the generals are either. Nor do you get to pick who your comrades are or what the proper strategies are. Sometimes we have to conform to reality which I would argue that you are not.
Look you would have a point if it weren't for the fact that they were five other Democrats that supported mtg and all of them are pro Palestinian.
Voting for stripping any money away is unequivocally a win when the country is responsible for a genocide.
It's not infectious. I just really really really want my tax dollars to stop funding a genocide.
As far as her voting consistently on the Iron Dome funding I'll go look into her voting record and report back because this is something I heard consistently. It's one of the places where her and Bernie Sanders seem to be weak.
How's your research going?
Here's some stuff if you've had trouble finding:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPgpLpKwcIM
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/biden-meets-with-aoc-in-wake-of-her-vote-against-military-aid-for-israel/
I'm sure this is true. I would really, really recommend that you take a hard look at why people you're paying attention to are consistently lying to you, and maybe reevaluate how much you want to keep paying attention to them going forward if all they're trying to do is deceive you into not supporting leftist figures.
Okay so yeah you are objectively correct that she did vote down the overall bill that funds Israel in general but let's not forget that she was condemned by Ilhan Omar and DSA for voting no on the MTG Amendment. It's not just people throwing shade at her she is receiving legitimate criticism for not voting away more of Israel's funding. The argument is quite simple As long as Israel commits a genocide they should receive no military funding period regardless of what they would use the assets for.
She is using the proper terminology calling this a genocide. She is heavily critical of Israel and she at least didn't vote Yes on a funding bill in 2021.
So in general she tends to be pretty Pro Palestinian but I think in this particular case on the MTG Amendment this is a loss unequivocally for her and she made a mistake. And she's deepening that mistake by doubling down.
Okay, sure, that part I agree with. She should have voted "yes" on the doomed amendment and maybe gotten into it more afterwards about how even "defensive" funding for Israel is a terrible thing to do at this point. My point was (a) this is being ginned up into the entirety of her Israel position, overriding a ton of pro-Palestinian things she has been consistently doing that are way bigger deals than this, pretty consistently throughout her career, and I think it's being done on purpose by people who are trying to hurt the left (who will wind up hurting Palestinians a lot more than helping them through the effort) (b) saying that her and Bernie are weak on Palestine in general is a sign that you're probably listening to some people who are lying to you on purpose. Those two are among the strongest Palestine supporters in congress, probably second only to people like Ilhan Omar and Rashida Tlaib.
So yeah if you want to condemn her vote on this, fine. If you want to spin it up into her being pro-genocide or in any way deserving of her office being vandalized or her being singled out as a genocide supporter, you are helping some people who are lying and hurting the Palestinian cause (as well as lot of domestic left issues). That's my point.
Oh I don't think she's a genocide supporter I know she's Pro Palestinian. I just think this was unequivocally a loss for AOC.
I don't agree with the people that smeared paint all over her office but I do understand why they are upset.
I haven't had much time to research this yet. I am interested in continuing our decision but got distracted by lively debate on how important electoralism is to fixing US politics.
My guy lol
Okay, sure. Read up. Find the votes and their statements on the floor, I actually think you'll find it pretty interesting.