this post was submitted on 01 Sep 2025
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On Sunday, the Washington Post published a 38-page plan for the ethnic cleansing of Gaza, drawn up with the collusion of the Boston Consulting Group and the staff of former UK prime minister Tony Blair, and actively discussed at the White House.

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[–] BrainInABox@lemmy.ml 5 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (14 children)

Biden funded UNRWA

https://www.reuters.com/fact-check/us-unrwa-funding-already-halted-2024-not-by-trump-2025-order-2025-01-28/

put sanctions on Israeli settlers

Entirely performative sanctions on a handful of individual settlers does not materially help Palestinians at all.

directly provided humanitarian aid

What does this even mean, what are you referring to?

“paused” delivery of some weapons

While continuing to provide as many weapons as Israel needed. Not a single Palestinian life was saved by this entirely performative gesture.

Trump cancelled funding for UNRWA

https://www.reuters.com/fact-check/us-unrwa-funding-already-halted-2024-not-by-trump-2025-order-2025-01-28/

unpaused all weapons shipments

Israel already was receiving all the weapons it needed under Biden.

and started drawing up plans with Netanyahu for the complete destruction of Gaza.

Bullshit; Netanyahu already had those plans drawn up under Biden.

the pace of the killing has greatly accelerated

Bullshit. Show your evidence or admit you're actively lying.

The endgame started pretty much as soon as he got into office

No, you just stopped ignoring how bad it was under Biden.

Instead of weakly pumping the brakes, he hit the gas hard.

What nonsense. Biden already had the gas pedal on the floor when Trump got in.

The result has been a massive increase in suffering.

Bullshit. You were just a denialist when Biden was in.

I’m not trying to defend Biden’s support for genocide.

Yes. You objectively are.

I’m pointing out huge substantive ways in which Trump was worse,

You literally have not pointed out a single way in which Trump is "hugely substantively worse". You've pointed to one thing that was straight up false, two that are completely insubstantial, and then just endlessly asserted that things are so much worse in Gaza based purely on vibes.

What do you want to pivot to now? I told you what I thought would happen in the conversation, let’s see.

Fuck off, genocide apologist

[–] PhilipTheBucket@piefed.social -5 points 1 day ago (11 children)

Biden funded UNRWA

https://www.reuters.com/fact-check/us-unrwa-funding-already-halted-2024-not-by-trump-2025-order-2025-01-28/

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-56665199

https://www.unrwausa.org/unrwa-usa-press-releases/2021/04/07/unrwa-usa-welcomes-biden-administrations-reengagement

I didn't know he'd stopped it in late 2024, so fair enough. Seems like more of his support for genocide, sure. Trump still made what had been a temporary shutdown permanent.

put sanctions on Israeli settlers

Entirely performative sanctions on a handful of individual settlers does not materially help Palestinians at all.

Probably true. How does refusing to vote for Democrats help Palestinians at all? If that's the metric.

directly provided humanitarian aid

What does this even mean, what are you referring to?

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/u-s-resumes-humanitarian-aid-delivery-gaza-repaired-pier/

https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-gaza-airdrop-humanitarian-assistance-f8bc071193f89906abf21478bc70a084

That stuff's not really enough. Stopping the killing is what's needed, and Biden never did that. My point is that he directly provided humanitarian aid. That's citations for when he directly provided humanitarian aid.

You mentioned a couple of times that "not a single Palestinian life" was saved by various performative gestures. Sure. The humanitarian aid probably saved some Palestinian lives. Can you really not see the difference between these pitiful efforts, and what Trump is doing?

the pace of the killing has greatly accelerated

Bullshit. Show your evidence or admit you're actively lying.

Here's what Statista says:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1616501/monthly-gaza-fatalities-injuries/

That shows no real increase in the pace of dying, so according to that, I am wrong. I don't believe it. It looks like that's the Gaza Health Ministry numbers, which are limited to only specific identified people and subject to how much civil organization is still in place to track dying people. I think the pace of death by starvation, disease, and malnutrition has greatly accelerated this year. You're free to say I think that because I was giving a free pass to Biden, I guess, but I anticipate that when people look back at what happened when the flow of food into Gaza was cut off, that will be the beginning of the end. You cannot just not feed an entire population and expect them to live.

The result has been a massive increase in suffering.

Bullshit. You were just a denialist when Biden was in.

Not really.

I was and still am horrified by the genocide happening in Gaza. I was alarmed by Biden's support for it, I was in favor of things like the "uncommitted" movement trying deliberately to put pressure on him. I posted stuff about the horror happening in Gaza throughout. Like I say, I was a mod of a Palestine news community for a while.

I was also even more horrified by the idea of what Trump would do to accelerate it. That's what I kept talking about. This thing where people try to backflip their way around to where that means I'm a genocide denialist or apologist, that I don't really care about Palestinians, as a way of presenting a reality that is totally bonkers when aligned with the facts, but aligns very smoothly with the stuff in their head they're trying to back up or justify, and makes them feel better about their own actions, is totally weird to me.

Maybe there is some kind of way to analyze why people cling to looking at things that way so hard, instead of just coming to grips with the idea that Trump is bad for Palestinians and admitting that it's accurate. IDK, I am too tired to really get into it.

[–] BrainInABox@lemmy.ml 5 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (9 children)

That shows no real increase in the pace of dying, so according to that, I am wrong. I don’t believe it.

Ok, fuck off then, conversations over. You're just declaring yourself right based on the fact that you think you're right. Pure religious doctrine at this point.

I was also even more horrified by the idea of what Trump would do to accelerate it.

Which you haven't actually been able to find any examples of. That's why you get called a denialist: because you're having to pretend that Biden wasn't already at maximal support for the genocide in order to justify saying "Trump is worse!"

a way of presenting a reality that is totally bonkers when aligned with the facts, but aligns very smoothly with the stuff in their head they’re trying to back up or justify

You mean like you rejecting all evidence and just going on pure faith that Biden wasn't as bad for Gaza as Trump?

instead of just coming to grips with the idea that Trump is bad for Palestinians and admitting that it’s accurate.

Oh fuck off; you know damn well that the claim in contention wasn't "Trump is bad for Palestinians". Don't do this dishonest bullshit.

[–] PhilipTheBucket@piefed.social -3 points 1 day ago (1 children)

I had a feeling this wouldn't be productive lol

[–] BrainInABox@lemmy.ml 4 points 1 day ago (1 children)

"If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past."

[–] PhilipTheBucket@piefed.social -3 points 1 day ago (1 children)

fuck off then, conversations over

This you?

(I got the feeling it wouldn't be productive a few messages ago, you didn't like that and got amped up, so fair enough, I went back in and engaged with you factually a little and went point-by-point with some citations, even openly indicating where I couldn't really find evidence of one of my points. You didn't like those responses, and declared yourself the arbiter of whether they were valid and announced that you had won the discussion. Alrighty then. Sounds like our business is concluded. Call me Mr. Anti Semite I guess.)

[–] BrainInABox@lemmy.ml 5 points 23 hours ago (1 children)

You didn’t like those responses, and declared yourself the arbiter of whether they were valid and announced that you had won the discussion.

What a dishonest little worm you are.

[–] PhilipTheBucket@piefed.social -1 points 14 hours ago (2 children)

Always a fascinating little window into how the lemmy.ml community operates.

I think there are two things at work here:

  1. One key thing is ignoring what the other person is saying, and instead explaining what the other person's argument / belief is, to them. In this case, I can tell you that I wasn't fine with Biden's support for genocide, and you'll tell me "You were just a denialist when Biden was in.", basically justify to yourself why I think something stupid, and then argue against that imaginary thing. It's honestly one of the most unproductive ways of engaging online.
  2. Another key thing is the speaking from authority. You're constantly telling me whether what I am saying is valid, whether or not I've "proven" something. Of course, it never goes both ways. I could never tell you "you haven't actually been able to find any examples" right after you sent me a bunch of examples, or anything like that, because you ~~disagreed with my examples~~ declared that my examples were all invalid. The whole concept of it being two people with different points of view, who probably aren't going to walk away from the exchange with one person "proven right" and them both agreeing on that, is foreign here. I can see why you gravitate so thoroughly to governmental systems that kill their opponents and illegalize dissent.

I think #2 is why the lemmy.ml people tend to self-select themselves into such a tiny community. This place should be the flagship community of the software, but instead it is a kind of pariah community that most of the community actively avoids. Most people like being convinced of something a lot better than they like being ordered what they're allowed to believe and whether or not their current opinions are valid or not (and also assigned some new opinions if they ever disagree with the hivemind), and so they tend to exclude lemmy.ml.

IDK, man. Good luck to you guys figuring it out, I think you will have more ability to influence and communicate if you can get out of these habits.

[–] BrainInABox@lemmy.ml 2 points 6 hours ago (1 children)
[–] PhilipTheBucket@piefed.social 1 points 5 hours ago (1 children)
[–] BrainInABox@lemmy.ml 1 points 5 hours ago

Fuck off, genocide apologist

[–] davel@lemmy.ml 1 points 6 hours ago* (last edited 6 hours ago)

This place should be the flagship community of the software,

Maybe it is the flagship for the software, but otherwise it really isn’t, nor do we intend for it to be. 2021: What is lemmy.ml?

Lemmy.ml has always been a niche site, and it will most likely stay this way. We don’t have any intentions to turn it into a mainstream instance, or set a goal of getting as many users as possible.

but instead it is a kind of pariah community that most of the community actively avoids.

It’s the second most active Lemmy instance after lemmy.world.
https://join-lemmy.org/instances?topic=all_topics&language=all&scroll=true

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