almost definitely a repost but eh
this post was submitted on 27 Sep 2025
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Don't be mean. I promise to do my best to judge that fairly.
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And not a single one is doing anything to actually revolt, just sitting online talking shit on people who are actively doing things because "incrementalism is useless, we need a revolution".
Sorry creating lemmy isn't starting the revolution, getting together a small amount of people online to talk about a parallel societal formation isn't starting a revolution, being civically inactive is not starting a revolution, buying a bunch of guns is not starting a revolution, talking about moving away from corporate tracking tools is not starting a revolution, switching from US to Chinese propaganda is not starting a revolution. As lame as all the gravy seal militias in the US are, they are numerous steps ahead on the starting of a revolution.
This is erasure of orgs like The Party for Socialism and Liberation and Freedom Road Socialist Organization. One of the number one things leftists try to encourage people to do online is to join an org, because sitting around and talking is useless beyond the entertainment of it and perhaps learning more theory. We do organize IRL, I've met some wonderful people doing so.
Yeah and I am a member of the two that are in my area. They all subscribe to incrementalism as people on your .ml would put it, though. None of these are preparing a revolution, they would labeled terrorist organizations, and destroyed very quickly if they did anything, actually, radical, like the ALF/ELF, while being so visible.
Most revolutionary orgs don't outwardly organize for reasons you suggest. Those orgs are still revolutionary.
And these are the behaviors I have seen so many people in online leftist spaces call useless, and incrementalist, as they are not preparing to actually revolt, they are working within the legal framework given to them by the capitalists. It seems you and I have a more closely aligned idea of change than a large amount of people who are on .ml. I also highly doubt most of these people will be able to deal with the violence then wish to incite with a revolution. I know how it is to kill, people, so I don't tell people they should.
I'm not sure what orgs you're talking about, because I align more with most people on Lemmy.ml. Maybe you actually do too?
The ones you posted have had their efforts mocked because they operate within the framework capitalists give them, and are not actually revolutionary. I have watched it happen, many there seem to think if there isn't violence, then nothing is happening. Also, no, I do not apologize for authoritarian governments, regardless of their alignment with capitalism. Nor do I support censorship of criticisms of places because they aren't aligned with NATO.
No, they are not mocked by users on Lemmy.ml. They are broadly supported by communists. I think you're inventing something to be mad at.
Yes, when you put a name to it people say they like them. When you say you are doing a specific things organizations like that support those efforts are mocked. Unless you want this to be a case of "don't believe your lying eyes".
I think you should discuss more, this isn't the case in my experience.
I have been told, and have seen others get told, that they are wasting their time with incrementalist pipe dreams, when discussing actual things we are doing, things that that organizations like the PSL advocate. Most often those names have a .ml home instance, and this is ignoring the known trolls who are on their 1000th account on .world just trying to start fights. This happens regularly enough that I have all but stopped talking about it because I don't want to have yet another person trying to argue that I need to be killing MAGA cultists, and blowing up infrastructure, or I am just another one of them. It became mind numbing. It did greatly reduce when I moved to an instance that blocks hexbear, which is probably why I have since been noticing the .ml names.
I have no way of making a genuine comparison because I don't know what orgs you're actually talking about. PSL and FRSO are overall seen very positively on all 3 of the Marxist-aligned instances. Further, neither Hex nor Lemmy.ml nor Grad advocate random adventurist terrorism.
You can only speak for yourself, but there are plenty of people on here, and other leftist spaces, that do just that. This does not seem to be a thing in person. Also, you keep getting hung up on the PSL's reputation. Strip the association, and discuss the very specific things you are doing to advocate for your position, in real life, and you get that. Well maybe not you, as you have brand recognition with a lot of these twats, however, I assure you, it happens to others, fairly regularly, I am also talking about /c/'s not on .ml, .ml people. They have to behave at home.
I bring up PSL because you said they specifically were looked down upon originally. Also, not sure what you mean by "brand recognition."
I said their efforts, then clarified that when stripped of organization names, and laid out as the specific activities they advocate, those activities get this response.
Brand recognition, damn near everyone on lemmy knows your name
That's flattering, I guess? Either way, I think what's going on is the orgs I'm talking about and the ones you're talking about are likely qualitatively different in strategies, but I can't know without examples, so we are at an impasse.
The same day I post my update to you, this hits my home page
This is an example of what I am talking about. While this isn't on .ml this is dbzero which is considered a contender for being considered part of "lemmygrad"
I agree with that, though, as do PSL and FRSO. Secondly, I have no clue what you mean by saying dbzer0 is a contendor for "being part of Lemmygrad," dbzer0 defederated from Lemmygrad because they are anti-ML. It's an anarchist instance, just because leftists across the board tend to agree that electoralism doesn't work doesn't mean they are all ML.
It's view on electoralism is not why people have started to assert this. It is a collection of expressed beliefs, and practices, largely by the mods.
This is just vaguely gesturing at leftist instances being "spooky" or "bad." Grad is Marxist-Leninist, dbzer0 is anarchist, dbzer0 defederated from Grad over it. Both are leftist, yes, but acting like dbzer0 is a contender to be "part of Grad" is just silly.
I am not the one deciding these things, I am repeating what I see, I guess I didn't make it clear
I don't see what you're seeing, I suppose.
This doesn't surprise me. I doubt you would hang around places where people are likely to be hostile towards you.
I tend to try not to, but being a communist means I can't really avoid that even if I wanted to.
ok I will give you examples later when I have more free time.
So the three main vector's of the PSL's approach are :
Protests Running Local Candidates Education about socialism/workers rights
I have had many people absolutely just deny that protest, or running local candidates works, because ultimately you are being forced to operate within capitalists rules, so the system will not allow you to break through in these ways. While education its self is seen as important, it is seen as absolute minimal work, and we are far past the point for the first steps.
I can not tell you how many times I have been told, or seen comments discussing, how these are all impotent actions. Every time I see a somewhat healthy size thread discussing running candidates, I can almost guarantee I will see people just dismiss it all as electoralism, and then tell people how they need to be out enacting the revolution, which I feel means some forms of violence, though they can't outright just say to go bomb places, and shoot people.
Protests are seen basically pointless because, if they were effective, they wouldn't allow them to happen. If one becomes effective, they will just call in the military, crush it, and move on like nothing happened. Ironically, a lot of these people will also defend this type of things for places like China, in other threads.
There is a growing amount of online leftists who are certain the only thing left to do is war. I do not fully disagree, the US is getting to the point were peaceful means of conflict resolution are all being removed. However, the vast majority of these people are just keyboard warriors, which I have no respect for. I have seen people call for violence, then, buried in their history, there is a casual conversation where they admit they haven't even been in a fight before.
Protests aren't seen as pointless, the manner in which you go about them, ie for electoralist reasons or for raising agitation and organizing, matters.
PSL is a revolutionary org trying to cement itself as a vanguard among the working class. It doesn't plaster that everywhere, the purposes of running candidates is to show that electoralism doesn't work.
Protests aren't seen as pointless to you. I have had many people express otherwise. The PSL doesn't seem to think running candidates is to demonstrate that it doesn't work. Their take on it is that establishing a base of representatives, and other officials, in line with their values, is how to assert influence over laws, both in legislation, and with judges on your side that will create precedence in alignment with you. The second component is that is make can force broad exposure of these people, and thus their ideas, to the mainstream. It is true that they don't think it is THE solution. However, they do not dismiss it as important, for a variety of reasons.
I have spoken with PSL members directly, no, you're misunderstood.
As have I, and I have been told that the number one way to make people understand that something is good is by providing it, or aspects of it, to people. This can be affected at the local level by changing local implementations of things, providing socialist methods of doing things in place where city/county law controls. We actually worked worked with an out of state organization from Chicago, which has a lot more resources than this dying, rust belt, city, to get free public transportation in this city, a government subsidized "supermarket" that adds value on top of things like SNAP, based on need, and removed a number of long standing laws that allowed for the purchase of public land for private development. This is, of course, only some things being worked towards. They believe that being able to slap their name on these things is a better tool for convincing people to, at least, give them a chance than anything else. Also, they get to have people aligned with their movement in things like town hall discussions, televised local debates, etc. They think it is very important, because without some sort of material quality to their ideas people will not be willing to listen to them. For instance several major public hearings in our city had Ana Santoyo, and Vijay Prashad, speak after the success of the push for free public transportation, as move that actually improved the economy of the city, rather than just cost them more money.
Obviously if it could work, it would be great, but PSL doesn't think it legitimately is feasible. They're a revolutionary org, not a reformist one. Engaging with the standard electoralist side is more for advertising and agitating for better, not an actual plan for succeeding, because Marxists know how terrible of a plan electoralism as a means to achieve better is.
I have been saying they don't think it is THE solution, and then I give the reasons why they think it is important. You seem to think they don't see it as important though, or not THAT important, which they do, like other than organizing protest/aid, this is what they do. They put a lot of resources into this, you don't spend so many resources on something that is a nice side benefit, and not particularly important.
The problem is that they don't have specific plans beyond this. When talked about, or even when looking for things online, there is a lot of talk about how "the material conditions are not yet ready for revolution", and other vague reasons behind not actually, really, truly, planning to execute a revolution. The other common response is that if they did that they would be destroyed like other radical groups. So, to those who see no other choice than revolution NOW, they are revolutionary in name only.
PSL isn't a vanguard party yet, it needs to be accepted by the vast majority of the working class to do so. Electoralism helps that purpose, it isn't expected to gain actual change. There don't exist people that "see no choice than revolution NOW," that's a misconception. Rather than trying to plan an adventurist coup now, or try to win electorally, PSL uses electoralism to spread their platform and gain legitimacy so that when revolution happens, they will be the vanguard.
You seem to be under the misconception that they use electoralism as a strategy for change, which is wrong, and you also seem to think revolutionaries seek revolution now, which is wrong, and that therefore people on Hexbear/Lemmy.ml/Lemmygrad.ml must not like PSL, which is wrong again. PSL isn't planning a coup, revolution requires mass support that doesn't exist yet.
You seem to think I am discussing my own thoughts on the subject. We are discussing things I see other people do, remember? These are things I see people say, with frequency. I also told you exactly what I was told by the Chicago branch, which was not "change" it is because their experience is that if everything they say is immaterial, or not even heard, then they aren't winning over the majority, so they do this.
I see people do this on the regular, so I don't know what to tell you. You are telling me I am not experiencing what I am experiencing.
I'm in Hexbear, Grad, Lemmy.ml, etc quite frequently and I've never seen people act the way you've described. As for PSL, I've spoken to multiple branches, and they more affirm what I'm saying. I dunno, you're seeing a fundamentally different experience than I am, and since you aren't really giving examples all we can say is that we see different things.
Also, let me make something else more clear, I am pro-action in this direction. I am against people online who demand violence, but do nothing but call people shit-libs online, when something else is being discussed. It is the hypocrisy that bother me. My choices have made my life violent, and now I am older, and that has made my already shitty body worse. These people have never started a structure fire, let alone fired on human beings.
I don't see people typically advocating for random adventurism, but revolution, which isn't something you just do, or something you actively plan for, just organize as best you can for the time it comes.
The difference is how someone acts at home, vs how they act elsewhere, I never said I see this stuff on .ml, etc. I said I see people with those those home addresses doing it, yes it is different than hanging out in their own proverbial club house. In the thread I posted a screen cap of there are plenty of people arguing we are past the point of anything but violence, go ahead and ask them what violent things they are doing. They are keyboard warmongering, without any reason to believe they have done anything actually radical, and even reason to specifically doubt it. Bunch of people who have never thrown a molotov at police, so to speak, before demanding violence of others.
I still think you're confusing people saying revolution is necessary with saying we all need to commit adventurist terrorism now.
I think you are confusing, and/or blending, things I am saying, maybe. There are people calling for the violence part of revolution, and they tend to do so on posts that discuss, other, non-violent aspects of it. They can't out-right say these things, as direct calls for violence will get you censored, but what they say has no other logical conclusion. Such as you can't get what was taken by force, without force. Whether you call it adventurism, or revolution, matters not, as this is what the people I am seeing are claiming it to be. Whether they are correct, or not, is not the point here.
I am saying we need organization, and planning, first, however we are at the point, at least in the US, where I truly doubt peaceful revolution is possible. You need a plan when you are enacting revolution otherwise you either get nowhere, or you decapitate the state you are against, and leave a vacuum of power to fill, and descend into chaos. I hard disagree that you don't actively plan for revolutionary action. Historically there has always been some level of planning, the level of planning tends to be a major determining factor on the cohesion of the end result.
My underlying point is that the people I see calling for "force to take back what was taken by force now", or whatever euphemisms, or vagueries, they may be using to say "we need hot conflict to resolve this, and that means violence", have never really dealt with any of the type of violence that goes into a society changing revolt. Often they will also blame people not "taking up arms", so to speak, as the problem, while they, themselves, do not do this either. This is my problem with it.
You're still conflating an adventurist coup with a revolution with mass support, the former fails every time while the latter takes more time and mass support. The latter is what people want to push, but they aren't going to firebomb a supermarket or anything, it needs to be deeply permeated within the working class before it can happen.
And I am being forced to conclude you are ignorant to how many people online are demanding action now. Not campaigns to get the working class on your side. I also think you may have allowed yourself to get caught up in the jargon of your position to the point where you might not understand that "adventurist coup" is an unplanned revolution, but that is messy, so this lingo is simply an attempt to divert negative stigmas to revolt by doing this, and most people do not care about that rehabilitative rebranding. You also seem to take things I see other people doing, as what I am doing, or thinking. Hence you thinking I conflate a minority coup style revolution, with one with mass support. Even though I have say, a number of times in this discussion, that things like growing the popularity of your position, planning, and organizing are what I want.
Historically the great majority of people in a revolutionary state do not support it. With about 80% not supporting, 20% claiming some level of support, and only 3-4% (over 3.5% being so rare there are like 5 known instances of it), of the population actually doing anything to revolt, that includes literally anything other than saying "sure I support it". There are currently lots of people who feel the 3.5% need to just act, not create campaigns to get most people on board with your ideas, but instead a take over, and create democracy free forced conformation to their socialist ideas. They preach that the time for popular revolution died sometime in the past, if it ever existed in the first place. They leverage extinction to justify their beliefs.
I think you may be assuming what you want, and feel is reasonable, is the only thing that is popular. That, or what you see people do in real life translates to online. I see otherwise daily. You keep telling me this isn't happening, and I keep seeing it. Do you know how many times I have seen arguments that the west is so entrenched in capitalism the only thing that will cause change is for people to be forced to? Day dreaming about China destroying the US, and rebuilding it as some socialist utopia? I mean, you don't seem to believe this happening, so I guess no. I also do not know how you do not see this. It honestly makes me wonder if you are seeing things, but interpreting them in a way that fits into what you are saying. Like how you see people in the US listen to Trump, the GOP, and other people in their movement, say explicitly bigoted things, call for political violence, and give direct explanations of what they plan to do, then say "Nah, that isn't what anyone is saying, or doing", "He didn't mean that by saying that", etc. I am not trying to be insulting here. I am genuinely wondering how you just miss something I see every day. These spaces aren't that large.
I think if you're only interpreting things through your own preconcieved notions, you're going to come to false conclusions like thinking leftists on Lemmy hate PSL and FRSO. That's just one example, and is why you seem insistent on something I just don't see.
Secondly, revolution needs mass support to be successful, it can't just be from a tiny minority, otherwise the revolutionary government falls. That's why coups don't solve anything, but revolution creates lasting change.
I never said they hate those organizations. I have even reiterated what I meant about this, more than once. I said there are a lot of people on lemmy, and other leftist online spaces, that will shit on people bring up things like running candidates, or believing we can/need to win over the the populous, before revolt starts, which are core actions of those groups. Do you understand this? Also I feel this is a pot calling the kettle black scenario.
Historically revolutions have not had mass support.
Right here you say PSL and FRSO are mocked. I understand what you're saying, I just disagree, and further revolutions historically have had mass support, you brought up completely unsourced numbers. Revolutionary governments have mass support as well.
I really don't think we are going to convince each other of anything.
Right there I have said they have had THEIR EFFORTS mocked. Are you able to distinguish mocking an organization vs mocking the things they do without thought to organization, simply actions that are not agreed with, and how that can be said to be mocking the efforts of organizations that do them? It happens all the time. You also have not posted sources for you claims that revolutions have massive support.
Yeah, I think you are right here. Especially since you are still misreading one of the first things I said to you, I honestly do not think you operating completely in good faith because of this.
I understand what you're saying, and I'm not misreading you. You say their efforts are mocked, but you don't actually know what their efforts actually are to make that claim. I know that you're trying to say people are being hypocritical by supporting PSL while disavowing their what their actual actions are when sepparated from that context, but you've got it flipped, people support their actual actions and that's why they support them, and you're confused on what they actually are.
Secondly, you had clear numbers, it shouldn't be hard to find a source for them. Socialist countries have overwhelming support, polling is consistent, and most that lived in the USSR want it back. Revolution cannot succeed without overwhelming support of the masses.
I am operating in good faith, just because we seem to be at an impasse doesn't mean either of us is bad-faith. Not all disagreements are a result of one party being bad-faith.
I didn't say I suspected bad faith for disagreeing.
Revolutions are different than the governments they produces decades later. The Bolshevik revolution, for example, did not come anywhere close to overwhelming support when it was happening.
The October Revolution was supported by the many workers and peasants, they didn't exactly hold a census beforehand but it only succeeded because of mass support.
I'm really confused what you're referring to, most of the people I've seen shitting on PSL weren't on .ml, but rather seemed to be Democrats mad that they ran as a third party for President.
refer to my later comment, it isn't the organization name, it is a reaction to talking about doing the individual things, things they are doing, and being told it is worthless incrementalism
You're being a little too vague for me to follow, what 'individual things' are you referring to getting called worthless incrementalism? You do sound like you have an axe to grind though I'm not sure about what