You were making a case that Stalin wasn't responsible for the holodomor, but you ignored the fact that even without that, he's still directly responsible for at least 2 million deaths.

[–] DarkCloud@lemmy.world 2 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (1 children)

I never said he wasn't. That number in fact comes from the text I posted. However, he wasn't "responsible" for causing Holodomor (he directed it once it had already been caused). It's clear you still don't know what Lysenkoism is.

He was responsible for directing the hunger politically, not for seeking to, or being the cause of the famine.

I'll simplify it:

If one person turns a tap on and another directs the water, who is responsible for the fact the tap is on?

I'm saying Lysenko and Lysenkoism (which has little to do with socialist and communist doctrine or schools of thought) is the man who turned the tap on. Stalin, being an authoritarian - chose to direct the water to what suited him politically. But the famine at that point was already happening. You can't just turn an agricultural disaster off once it sets in.

[–] MacNCheezus@lemmy.today 0 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Okay, but even if you remove the ~6 million deaths from the holodomor, he still remains responsible for the ~800k executions and ~1.5 M gulag deaths. I'm not sure what's so difficult to understand about that.

[–] DarkCloud@lemmy.world 1 points 2 days ago (1 children)

You seem to think I denied those numbers rather than being the person who pasted them to you.

[–] MacNCheezus@lemmy.today 0 points 2 days ago (1 children)

No, but you keep talking past them.

[–] DarkCloud@lemmy.world 1 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Past the numbers I told you about.

I'm done here - you're having a conversation with yourself at this point. I addressed the topic I addressed (the deaths from starvation Lysenkoism caused).

[–] MacNCheezus@lemmy.today 0 points 2 days ago (1 children)

That's immaterial. Stalin probably didn't execute any of those 800k people himself, but he's still responsible because he ordered their deaths. Likewise, it was him who put Lysenko into a position of power where he could cause the holodomor, so he's at least partly responsible.

It's as if you're arguing Hitler wasn't responsible for Mengele's torture experiments because it wasn't him who was conducting them.

[–] DarkCloud@lemmy.world 1 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (1 children)

I feel you don't know much about these subjects.

Trofim Lysenko

The downfall of Soviet genetics and agriculture occurred due to the alignment of numerous social, economic, scientific, meteorological, and political factors. No single person can bear complete blame for the events, but a crucial actor in the story was Trofim Lysenko. Lysenko was born to a Ukrainian...

https://www.storybehindthescience.org/lysenkoism

I also think you're arguing just to argue rather than doing something more useful. As I said earlier, neither Mao or Stalin were aiming for a famine, where as Hitler was most definitely aiming for a mass genocide. So your comparison is full of shit.

Bye.

[–] MacNCheezus@lemmy.today 1 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Who put Lysenko in a position of power?

As I said earlier, neither Mao or Stalin were aiming for a famine

So that makes it okay? "Sorry bro, I just killed 6 million people but it wasn't on purpose"

[–] DarkCloud@lemmy.world 1 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

Who put Lysenko in a position of power?

Look bud, I don't have all day to teach you this shit. I'm not your mommy or daddy or the history teacher at the local school, so just stop bothering me with your lack of knowledge about this.

Lysenko was elected in 1945 to the ruling committee of the USSR Academy of Sciences—the top scientific institution in the country—numerous scientists spoke out against him, citing his poor scientific reputation [7]. Over the next several years, Lysenko was criticized numerous times, and there were even steps taken to open an institute of genetics [4]. From 1946-1947, up to 1.5 million people died within the Soviet Union due to famine [18]. Lysenko’s nadir during this period was reached in April of 1947, when he was harshly criticized by Russian chemist Yuri Zhdanov, who highlighted Lysenko’s failures. He pointed out the destructive manner in which Lysenko had demonized geneticists, and argued that monopolies in science inhibit advancement [4]. Zhdanov’s words were particularly dangerous for Lysenko, given that the chemist was from a family with close ties to Stalin (e.g., Zhdanov went on to eventually marry Stalin’s only daughter) and he was a member of the powerful Central Committee of the Communist Party [13].

He was a conman, go look it all up yourself. Learn to google.

[–] MacNCheezus@lemmy.today 0 points 1 day ago

He was a conman

What does that matter if Stalin fell for it? Again, it was Stalin who put him in the position where he could do all that damage.