this post was submitted on 18 Jul 2025
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I've also talked to actual Chinese people that live in China, too. The Marxists are more correct about China than the liberals, by quite a laughably large margin.
Yeah, but that's because the liberals that you're talking about are only liberals in name only and they think that China is some autocratic hellscape. It's easy to be closer to the truth than those people. Also you're both wrong. As is almost always the case, the truth is somewhere in the middle. But we're on .ml, so ofc people will disagree with me on that
Which part of this do you disagree with? You're being a contrarion at this point, I outright stated that not everything bad about China is a lie, just that a huge portion of it is. You just stated that "the truth is in the middle," but what I stated above already acknowledges that while good overall, China has a long way to go socially and economically. In fact, the fact that they largely succeed in their planning and are continuously improving both shows how far they have come and how far they have to go.
People are disagreeing with you moreso because you're just picking fights and playing the contrarion.
I'm not picking "fights", lol. I haven't replied to a .ml thread in months. And I'm not getting into that because I have before and almost none of you have budged an inch.
Not on Tiananmen Square(yeah, it didn't happen in the actual square, doesn't mean nothing happened),
not on the Uyghur situation(just because they're not getting genocided like the gazans doesn't mean "education camps" is a socially acceptable thing to put someone through),
not on the fact that the metrics that you're using to compare don't paint the full picture(such as the whole green energy thing when in reality they're still one of the highest CO2 emitting countries per capita)
nor on fact that you keep pretending that state capitalism = socialism, which is not. Just because a place is better than the USA doesn't mean that it's a good place.
Socially, yeah... Even worse xD I agree, they have tons of work ahead of them. And on certain issues (such as LGBTQ), they're not really progressing.
Okay, so I felt I needed to reply to that for some reason. But like I said, I've talked about these things before, with you included, and you've never budged, so I'm not getting back into it. So unless you need to reply for someone else, don't bother replying to me cause I'm not gonna respond anymore.
Well, since you brought these up...
Nobody says that nothing happened around the square and in Beijing either. Everyone recognizes it as a tragedy, just not the way western media reports on it.
Nobody said the re-education camps are perfect, just that there isn't mass sterilization or systematic murder like western countries claim.
The PRC's CO2 emissions are from producing what the vast majority of the world consumes. As far as consumption is concerned, emissions per capita in the PRC are low and shrinking.
The PRC is socialist, the large firms and key industries are publicly owned. It isn't in the later stages of socialism where private property has begun to disappear entirely and communism is around the corner, nor is it state capitalist like the Republic of Korea, Singapore, or Bismark's Germany, where the state is involved in planning a majority privately owned economy.
Socially, the PRC is making great strides. Jin Xing is one of China's top celebrities, and she's openly trans. The older generations are more conservative, but the younger generations are more progressive, and China's democratic structures mean change takes time but ultimately does come from below.
You seem to have a fantasy view of Marxists, while not being very well-read on socialist theory either. If you focused on connecting with people I think you'd get farther.
Not gonna waste time on all of that because it would take way too much time but first one is quite easy:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-48489002
https://sh.itjust.works/pictrs/image/02073759-a8da-4b17-a90a-52001f60ecec.png
Both china's defense minister and .ml's admin seem to be disagreeing with you.
It's still a tragedy, even if putting down the riots that resulted in lynchings of innocents before the PLA came in was ultimately necessary. You're not really understanding what I'm saying.
A Maoist protest was twisted into a liberal one backed by the US, where the rioters went on to burn people alive and lynch unarmed officers.
You're the only one saying tragedy. The rest are praising it. One more just for "fun" "much ado about nothing"
At best, according to Chinese sources, it was 300 revolutionaries killed in response to a handful of lynched soldiers -> not praise worthy. That's called overkill.
At worst, according to the Swiss ambassador that was there, it was 2600-ish people. Definitely not praiseworthy. That's called a massacre.
Either way, not necessary. Ffs, the whole black lives matter which was a shit show and still there were 35-ish deaths. But yeah, it was necessary and praiseworthy. Give me a break. But it's good to finally get an actual stance out of you and not just dodgy bs. But you say "PLA" instead of "the army", so I'm not surprised.
They are stating that it was necessary to put down the color-revolution, a western-backed riot where the organizers themselves admitted to trying to provoke a violent response:
There were lynchings of officers, firebombings of vehicles, and widespread violence, all of a largely reactionary nature. These were not protests for social justice. Originally, they were ultraleft Maoists upset at Deng's market reforms, but later they became liberal protests, backed by the US.
It was a tragedy that it happened at all, that's correct, however if the counter-revolt succeeded in toppling socialism, countless lives would have been lost, just like when the USSR fell and 7 million people died that didn't have to.
Not sure what you mean by "dodgy BS," I have always been clear on what my stances are. I'm a Marxist-Leninist, I hold opinions generally held by Marxist-Leninists. I'm on Capital Volume 2. I'm a spooky scary socialist.
The “mass murder” didn’t come from the Chinese state; it came from the CIA-backed terrorists. Like any state, the Chinese state has a duty to stop terrorist attacks.
📺 The Tiananmen Square "Massacre" Never Happened — [Sources]
I said it was tragic that it happened in the first place, and it's horrible that the US took advantage of grievances the public had in order to force violent reaction. I also think it's a good thing that the socialist system remained, millions more lives have been saved and extended thanks to it, regardless if the rioters that burned unarmed officers alive lived to see those lives saved.
Again, though, you're deliberately avoiding having an actual conversation, and are looking to pick fights. I've talked about the June 4th incident before, several times, going over the causes, influences, distortions by the west, etc. A good source is Another View of Tiananmen by Sun Feiyang and Roderic Day.
I'm not going to apologize for being a Leftist, even if you call me pejoratives, lol.