this post was submitted on 28 Feb 2024
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Sealioning (lemmy.world)
submitted 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) by ahlooolahhh@lemmy.world to c/comicstrips@lemmy.world
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[–] Candelestine@lemmy.world 25 points 1 year ago (4 children)

It's a clever method of trolling. But if you come prepared and/or are willing to put some effort in, you actually can wreck them with evidence and sound arguments that shuts them completely up.

This is very satisfying.

[–] half_built_pyramids@lemmy.world 27 points 1 year ago (5 children)

This is why we need seal clubbing

[–] KnightontheSun@lemmy.world 35 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I don’t know. They stay out too late, get way too drunk and make a terrible racket when they get home.

[–] Sotuanduso@lemm.ee 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Can you provide evidence of one time this has ever happened in your area?

I constantly see ads for hot tight seals in my area.

[–] kinther@lemmy.world 14 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Pardon me, I couldn't help but overhear...

Would you mind showing me evidence of any negative thing any sea lion has ever done to you?

I'm just curious if you have any sources to back up your opinion that seal lions need clubbing.

Fair enough, could you club me instead?

[–] ininewcrow@lemmy.ca 11 points 1 year ago

Beat and kill them while they're young and innocent before they become well informed, intelligent adults that can counter and challenge your firmly held beliefs?

[–] tjsauce@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago

IM GONNA CLUB THIS SEAL TO MAKE A BETTER DEAL

[–] thanks_shakey_snake@lemmy.ca 22 points 1 year ago (2 children)

It's also frustrating because there are people who are sincerely trying to discuss in good faith while having a different opinion, which is camouflage for the sealion trolls.

Of course, people increasingly forget about the former group completely, and react with hostility... It's understandable, but unfortunate for healthy discussion.

At least in your case, your response is to lay out robust arguments to explain your position, which is productive regardless of whether they're trolling or sincere. I've learned a great deal over the years from strangers on the internet putting a clinic on someone who may or may not have been trolling.

[–] zeppo@lemmy.world 14 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Accusing people of “sealioning” is a great way to not have to defend or discuss poorly thought out or sourced claims.

[–] Cryophilia@lemmy.world 5 points 1 year ago (2 children)

True, which is why if someone accuses you of sealioning you should be prepared to explain your position and the reasoning you used to get there. Not asking questions of them but instead explaining your own position.

[–] stephen01king@lemmy.zip 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Well, in the specific case provided in the comic, the sealion has no position he can explain since the other side refuses to even establish how he got to his opinion.

[–] Cryophilia@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

I guess a corollary would be, first, don't actually sealion.

[–] zeppo@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

The problem I see is when the original poster didn’t explain their point of view, but complain when you ask them to clarify.

[–] ricecake@sh.itjust.works 8 points 1 year ago (1 children)

So, the issue is that behaviorwise they're indistinguishable from each other.

Intentionally or unintentionally ignoring signals that a person isn't interested in debate or discussion with you is just as annoying to the person being bothered either way.

It doesn't matter if your intentions are sincere or not when you decide to pester someone into a debate they're not interested in having.

[–] thanks_shakey_snake@lemmy.ca 9 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Yeah true, the persistent pestering component is arguably always trolling. I guess that's one of the signals that you can use to distinguish.

I can still think of gray areas, but I guess that's why it's effective camouflage.

[–] livus@kbin.social 7 points 1 year ago

Another signal is their complete lack of interest in anything you've said outside of what they want to pester you about.

[–] Revonult@lemmy.world 15 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Care to provide any evidence to support this claim? I would like to have a civil discussion with you about this. /s

[–] Candelestine@lemmy.world 9 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Just an anecdotal account. I was expressing my own experiences and how they make me feel, for which it would be challenging and largely unnecessary to provide evidence to a random dumbass on the internet, yes?

/not s, an example

[–] Cryophilia@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

If your feelings are irrational, it's incumbent on you as a rational person to examine them and separate emotion from fact. Since you have no facts to back up your feelings, clearly the feelings are irrational and should not be used to inform your actions or viewpoints, correct?

[–] Candelestine@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Not if I'm recounting a personal experience, no. Humans are not purely rational creatures, otherwise laissez faire capitalism would solve all the world's problems.

If I wished to be purely rational, then perhaps. But personally I do not think all feelings are worth disregarding.

[–] Sotuanduso@lemm.ee 3 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Would you mind providing evidence of a scenario in which it's good to be irrational? Because it sounds like you have some level of distaste for being rational, but I'm not seeing any source to back that up.

[–] Candelestine@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

No, that's a frankly absurd request. What is or is not "good" is not something sourceable, it's an entirely subjective question. What makes you think everything has some definitive source?

[–] Sotuanduso@lemm.ee 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Excuse you, I'm being polite here and you're calling me absurd. Can't a person have a civil conversation without devolving into name-calling? And why haven't you given a source? Are you unable to back up your claims, or are you unwilling to engage in rational dialogue?

[–] Candelestine@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I'm sorry, but if you want me to remain what you'd define as civil, you're going to need to be reasonable, not ridiculous. You haven't answered my question. Where does this belief all things are sourceable come from?

[–] Sotuanduso@lemm.ee 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I have been unfailingly polite and you're being rude, calling me ridiculous just for trying to engage in rational debate. Sources are the backbone of reasoned discussion, and if you're unwilling to engage in that, maybe don't make such bold claims in public.

[–] Candelestine@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

You seem to have a proclivity for making sweeping generalizations and overarching statements. You're not actually the God-King of the Universe, though, fyi. Regardless, I apologize for not meeting your standards for explaining my own anecdotal experiences.

[–] Sotuanduso@lemm.ee 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Alright, I think this has gone on long enough. Thanks for playing along.

[–] Candelestine@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago

You did get me a little riled up a few posts ago. The switch to rationality vs irrationality was a good one. lol

[–] daltotron@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Would you mind providing evidence of a scenario in which it’s good to be irrational?

I think I found the seal club, guys.

Asking someone to provide evidence of a scenario in which something is irrational is an irrational thing to ask. I'll state why with a kind of example. So, say you have the choice between two boxes of corn flakes. You look between the two, and you decide to pick one. You, you specifically, decide to pick one. Perhaps, the red one, over the blue one, I can't state this for you. Make up a reason why you chose that box. Now, this reason, which you have chosen, would it necessarily be a rational reason, for you to have chosen the box you did?

Presumably, yes, unless you're going to argue against yourself, and say that, in this instance, it's actually good to be irrational. In this instance, then, you've made a rational decision, you had a reason to believe the thing that you did. Now, taking this example, and what I've formerly said, about you not being irrational, in mind, can you think of any given scenario in which you've ever made an irrational decision? Perhaps you can, even, and it was bad, but also, presumably, you thought it was a rational decision at the time. It was probably (here is maybe where it gets iffy) only in hindsight, that you thought your previous belief was irrational.

Taking this into account, and extrapolating off of that experience, we can intuit that they probably didn't mean what you meant when you (not you, the other guy, but also you right now I suppose) said the word "irrational", they don't share your definition of it. Because, kind of, based on these examples I've given, there would never be a circumstance in which it would make sense, i.e., "be rational", for someone to make an irrational decision. This is a straight paradox, if we take that definition to be what they meant.

Then, considering this, right, we can assume they probably meant something else, other than what you have assumed. I will not claim to know what they meant.

Blam, sea lion that, motherfucker. You probably can if you tried really hard, but blam. Sea lion it. (this could be a pretty good example of sea-lioning, too, I gave you some pretty low-stakes, specific stuff to contest, there, that isn't really part of the main argument, i.e. it's the definition of a sealion).

[–] Sotuanduso@lemm.ee 1 points 1 year ago

Nah, I don't feel like it. But if I were to do so, I'd probably say something like "this is laughably absurd, come back when you know how to debate" so as to avoid letting you steer the conversation.

[–] Revonult@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

Perfect response!