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So, Russia gains all their prime objectives through offensive warfare, and Ukraine is forced to keep kowtowing to Russia in some semblance of neutrality (finlandization was not fun, you know).
Tell me again how this is a compromise. Also how this is not a full return to "might makes right", the final nail in the coffin of the fragile East-European stability agreed to in the Helsinki accords.
From Russia’s perspective, the stability agreements have been broken ever since NATO countries broke their promises not to expand NATO one inch eastward. Russia reacting to the West’s salami tactics was a long time coming. The US and its “partners” knowingly crossed red line after red line.
Yes, this massive Nato expansion, almost as bad as the EU expansion, forcing one country after another to join then.
Also the verbal agreement to not situate military stuff in former DDR, in a time when the Soviet Union was alive and the situation was "slightly" different, clearly applies today. Do you want to bring the Warsaw pact back too, I'm sure there are agreements somewhere?
Those countries didn’t force NATO to invite them and accept them.
You do realise it's an invitation in name only, not extended unless the aspirant country wants it?
True, refusing to accept is always possible. But NATO is not pushing itself, countries want to or don't want to join of their own agenda. Which doesn't really make it "expansionist", just "accepting".
Bullshit argument and you know it.
Err, as a Finn, we didn't want to join for decades and neither did Sweden, and neither of us received any invites. When we did want to join, invitation was part of the process, probably the last step but I really don't remember. Several other countries wanting to join, some for a long time, have not been invited. How is it a bullshit argument?
Because you’re not even making an argument. The NATO countries chose to invite & accept eastward countries, which expanded NATO eastward. By explaining the obvious, that those countries accepted the invitations, you’re not actually adding anything. It wasn’t those countries that made promises and assurances to Russia, it was the NATO countries.
Those countries, in practice, applied to join, and many are still stuck in the application process. Just because it's called an "invitation" doesn't make it so.
Don't think I can make it any more concise than that.
I don’t see how the countries that haven’t gotten into NATO are relevant. The countries relevant to the “unprovoked” invasion are Czechia, Hungary, Poland, Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Albania, Croatia, Montenegro, and North Macedonia.
I don’t see how the countries that haven’t gotten into NATO are relevant.
It is relevant to claims of NATOs "expansionist" nature. But we can drop that topic.
“unprovoked” invasion.
I'd just like to point out that the "Russia was provoked" arguments are based on the realism school of foreign affairs, which boils down to "might makes right". Seeing fellow lefties more radical than me espouse it with such glee is always such a sad thing.
Czechia, Hungary, Poland, Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Albania, Croatia, Montenegro, and North Macedonia.
Now I don't quite know what you want me to do with that list. Yes, they were (probably, haven't checked but will take you at your word) members of NATO at the time. Do you want me to find sources for them aspiring to become members of NATO well before the invite? But that would be going back to the "NATOs expansionist nature" debate. Do you want to discuss the relevance of the "not one inch eastward" comments? But there are plenty of sources articulating that better than we could.
I’d just like to point out that the “Russia was provoked” arguments are based on the realism school of foreign affairs, which boils down to “might makes right”. Seeing fellow lefties more radical than me espouse it with such glee is always such a sad thing.
This is so confused. There is no “glee” about it, and might doesn’t make right morally, it makes right factually. The realist school and we historical materialists almost never want the same outcomes, but it’s not uncommon for us to agree on some facts on the ground.
Here are some more “unprovoking” facts on the ground.
