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cross-posted from: https://reddthat.com/post/46807163
Since this post posted in /c/womensstuff, a community that prohibits male participation, showed up on the front page of All I'm cross-posting it to a space where men can chime in and answer/discuss it freely.
Nope, it’s pretty easy to navigate work and life in general while actively not being a shit head.
I’ve unfortunately been a part of workplaces where people have complained about this type of thing. Typically it’s because they weren’t allowed to make demeaning jokes targeted at a specific class/race/gender/etc.
class/race/gender/etc
For whatever reason there's a subset of men that genuinely believe you can bully a woman into having sex with you. It's not exclusive to any generation either. And they're fuckin mad cuz they genuinely think they're being singled out and that this is the strategy actually works for other men.
As men I think it’s our job to disabuse those people of that notion. Using compassion first, but then mockery and whatever else is at hand.
As a heterosexual cisgender white man, I have to be careful that what I say does not insult or offend those around me. Doing otherwise would be rude. Back in the day, we called that etiquette.
Now, some people might be thinking "well I am not racist/sexist/homophobic/whatever so I never have to think about what I am saying." Good for you. I am approaching 40. When I was growing up, there was no such thing as trans inclusive language. You were an ally if you did not call LGBTQ+ people "fa***t" and super inclusive if you did not use "gay" as a generic negative adjective/adverb (i.e. "The teacher gave us homework even though we also have an essay due at the end of the week? Gay!"). A few years ago, a gay friend (and here I literally mean that my friend is homosexual) called me out and made me realize how my speech patterns on sexuality were super heteronormative.
We have to periodically reexamine how we talk, especially around sensitive topics, and make sure we are not implicitly saying things we did not mean to.
I agree with this 100%. We should all be careful what we say because its etiquette. We are all working on being more polite and kind.
White man here - No, I just don't say racist or sexist stuff. It's pretty easy really.
If by “walk on eggshells” you mean “avoid using racial stereotypes and commenting on people’s bodies” then sure.
I’m a white guy and I feel comfortable talking about a wide range of topics at work and I don’t feel like I need to be overly cautious about what I say.
I work with a lot of trumpers, so I kinda do, not for my jobs sake but for safety's sake. But it's a union job so there's also a lot of anti-trumpers.
low effort ragebait from both tweets
No. I'm kind of an asshole who also works in a sector that is shared with all variety of people and often work side by side with people who ignorant people might call "sensitive". I really am not careful at all. Sometimes I ask questions I really shouldn't point blank because I'm dumb (is it safe to be trans here? Do you get harassed?). I've deadnamed and misgendered by accident. I don't get the vibe that people want to make a big deal out of these social faux pas unless you seem malicious. I've fucked up a trillion times apologize and move on. Now I have friends who I've accidentally insulted calling me up to hang out sometimes. It's fine. Just don't be malicious. Most people who complain about walking on eggshells aren't just not careful like me, but unwilling to change or learn.
I'll tell you a secret, no matter where you work you need to be a little careful what you say and how you phrase it but generally you can treat it all the same. Your personality isn't the problem, your biases, your willingness to learn and adapt, and your attitude are.
Whilst I wouldn't call it "walking on eggshells" - I've had my perspective invalidated in discussions based on my perceived identity (majority culture, male) on more than one occasion.
I'm also part of an "invisible" minority which does necessitate actually "walking on eggshells" in certain contexts.
It is a bit disheartening that my being part of an invisible minority somehow makes my personal perspective "more valid" to some people. Every person is an individual, and personal, lived experiences are so much more important than demographic markers and groups.
Exactly. So anyone using those demographics to judge others out of hand is basically by definition a judgemental shitstain.
... just like how the vast majority of Fox "News" avids behave... The ones most willing to jump to conclusions are the worse party in all cases, and that's fox's fucking MO. (note that me washing all fox news avids in this way is NOT the same, as I will still allow such an idiot to eat their foot in front of me before I dismiss them, whereas they will openly disparage trans people and "others" while only offering a paper thin made up charicature as "evidence")
There is a trope of the well-meaning white man speaking for women/minorities instead of letting woman/minorities speak for themselves
Whether you found yourself unwittingly acting that trope or just happened to get on the bad side of a misanthrope it's important to try to learn from such an experience so that you can be a better ally
Only think I've had this happen with a proper misanthrope (irl) on one occasion, an acquaintance, friend of a friend - self-proclaimed "Hates all men" type and very blatant about it. That one was certainly interesting.
Most often however it's simply the assumption that I can't have experience with certain things - often not said outright but it shows in small comments or body language. In these cases it is usually unintended and people don't even realize it themselves. I don't take offense, instead elaborating/clarifying. But, it has given me a lot more compassion for my fellow men.
be a better ally
I don't strive to be an "ally" or towards any other particular label. What I do strive towards, aside from the happiness of myself and my loved ones, is having a net positive impact in the world - leaving it a better place for future generations and making it a nicer place for the people living in it.
Looks like ragebait
I'm more inclined to believe that this subset of poor white men have displayed problematic behaviour at work than I am to believe that everybody else just has it in for them.
yeah I work with a guy that is still pretty frosty he got mandatory training and a serious suspension period at work because he couldn't scream anti LBGTQ slurs at co-workers, we work with children... so... kinda glad he's been told the leave his personality at the door.
I'm pretty sure "walking on eggshells" means you can't say the n word or give the brown people racists nicknames.
It's funny because normal white guys have no issues speaking our minds because we aren't racist, misogynist assholes. However, those guys (and there are more than I would like to see) don't really give a shit about what they say because they're complete douche nozzles, many being narcissistic and think the world revolves around them. They should be the ones walking on eggshells. However, they're more likely to brand the eggshells as woke libtards and crush them on purpose.
I would say that you dont need to walk on eggshells but that straight white men ARE held to a different standard.
Ive lost count of the times I've heard "Women are better at multitasking" or "Sorry, you know us Latinos are a passionate people" and stuff like that and that shit is just normal and accepted. But if I were to respond with "Yes, but men are better at focused tasks" or "Well I'm white so I have better emotional control" that would be FUCKING WILD and straight to HR. I wont even make a lighthearted joke about my heritage because I dont look like my grandparents fled Berlin in the 30s (which they did, I'm Jewish by heritage not by practice/belief)
I dont "walk on eggshells" but theres shit I just dont touch with a 10 foot pole.
Ive lost count of the times I’ve heard “Women are better at multitasking” or “Sorry, you know us Latinos are a passionate people” and stuff like that and that shit is just normal and accepted.
I usually reply that it's too bad white men are only the best serial killers. In as dead pan of a voice as possible.
I walk on eggshells at work because I need to keep my corporate professional mask on at work. Like everyone else I need to put on my work persona and attempt to mask things that might be "unprofessional". Same with keeping a calm cool collective mask on even if I am frustrated, sad or tired. This is true for everyone though.
Being white and male hasn't ever had anything to do with me personally walking on eggshells at work. Just depends on who is involved and where I am. I just call it masking.
Sort of I do. I really suck at real-time communication. I usually can't even respond to "Hi", there's not enough time for me. "What? Was that said to me? Probably. I should reply. What exactly? Hello? Hi? That's shorter, but repetitive. How loud? Just say something. (Output) Hi. (End of output) Did they hear me? That was too quiet, right? Should I try again? What if they did hear me? FUCK! Maybe next time."
Same goes for when and how to say thanks and sorry. I don't have half an hour to think it out. I need text.
Other things are complicated too, and I often say things that get misunderstood or aren't appropriate on second thought, or I interrupt someone because I thought they were finished, or I am probably not heard, but repeating something for 4th time is awkward because what if it was, but it just wasn't ACKed. But usually that doesn't happen, as I can't manage to time my talking at all.
So in a sort of way, yes.
If not starting some uncomfortable talks is the point, then that's rather just a problem with few specific coworkers.
This has nothing to do with you being white and everything to do with some other personal issue. It sounds like self esteem/self confidence, but I'm no brain scientist. Thinking this has something to do with the color of your skin will surely lead down a dark path though. Maybe go see a speech therapist or the like. They might actually be able to help you with some of those perceived issues.
I kind of forgot this was supposed to be about me being white dude, rather than just the "walking on eggshells" at work part, so it makes sense it makes no sense in that regard.
Ah gotcha. Yeah I certainly saw some early red flags. That makes me feel a little better! Must be something that really bugs you if that's what you focused on in the post. Hope you work through it or accept it as a personal trait. Good luck out there!
Sounds like a neurodivergent person having to mask when dealing with neurotypicals. Masking is a kind of walking on eggshells.
I tend to use a rolling pin to crush the eggshells before distributing them to the garden. A moderately coarse grind can help to repel snails and slugs, as it's appears to be uncomfortable for them to crawl over. I don't think I could get the same level of coarse grind by walking on them, besides, it would probably be uncomfortable for me, as well.
What are they too afraid to say?
Loads of shit! I'll throw a few examples to the, "They just want to say n*****!" crowd.
Never heard "Eskimo" used in a derogatory manner, not once. Social media now tells me it's verboten. There was a guy posting really interesting pics on r/historyporn. People berated him for using "Eskimo", every post. He was like, "Yeah, I call myself an Eskimo, some don't like it, but Inuit can be equally insulting as we're not all Inuits. Most of us don't care." What? Am I supposed to discern your tribe?! Correct me if you don't like it, fine.
"Oriental" was another weird one. Ah fuck! Can't say that anymore? It was never an insult! "Rugs are Oriental, people are Asian!" OK, I get that, I'll change it up. Asked my Filipino wife just now, "Who are these people and why do they care?" "They're white kids on social media. Forget I asked."
Don't start me on pronouns. If you want me to call you anything on the top line, we good. If I make a mistake, I'll correct. But I refuse to call you "faer". BTW, I catch that prompt on 20% of job applications. Weird. A preferred name is one thing; Mike vs. Mikey. vs. Michael, Elly vs. Elaine, Douglas vs. Boss Hogg, whatever. Asking someone to call me an elf is quite another. LMAO, can I call you a "fairy"?
Another good one that seems to have fallen by the wayside, like these bullshit made-up pronouns, "latinx". Go fuck yourself. That sounds like some bullshit white people made up like "African American". Ever heard an Hispanic person use that? Nope.
Speaking of, I asked black coworkers in the 90s what they thought of "African American". "Man, shalafi, nobody gives a shit." They all seemed a tad insulted I would ask such a dumb question. Meh, they put up with me because I was asking honestly. Still, they were shakin' their heads. "What are these white people telling themselves?"
I'm afraid to compliment a women, no matter how low-key. "Hey! Kick-ass shoes!" Or, "What's that color of that nail polish? My wife might like that." Or, "Why all y'all suddenly wearing cornflower blue polish? Did I miss something on TV?" Yeah, that's fine 99% of the time, but the last 1% step is a doozy.
Perhaps worst of all, if you're not a white male, you automatically get the benefit of the doubt for a social faux pas. We white guys are supposed to be hyper-tuned to all the latest words and fads. We mostly get by just fine, if we're not jerks, but that one accusation makes us guilty as charged, no jury needed. Eggshells.
tl;dr: Social media is not real life, but it certainly informs it.
(Sorry OP, you asked, I answered.)
Turn it upside down. Do white men need to walk all over everyone with no regard whatsoever for their feelings?
People who focus heavily on this, tend to have issues with being racist / sexist / mysoginistic / etc, or at the very least saying things that are considered that these days.
However, this sentiment is not 100% out of nowhere or without context. Everything in life is a gradient / spectrum / bell curve, and there will always be some minority of people that take things too far.
I've experienced people dismissing my opinion because I appear to be strongly in the privileged class, and while some of those times I've reflected and realized my input really wasn't needed and I was too excited to talk, there have been others where the point I was making had nothing to do with class or privilege, and others where people have not realized that I'm a silent minority and I've still been dismissed out of hand.
I do also feel bad for the generations older than me, as there does seem to be biases towards:
a) assuming that older looking people are more prejudiced
b) focusing on using modern correct language rather than processing the intent of what they're saying.
For example, as my grandma got older and older, she reverted more and more to the language she grew up with, using problematic terms like mulatto etc. and she was an active gay and racial rights campaigner in the 50s and 60s who had stopped using words like that by the 90s and 00s. But people are fallible and stuff from our upbringing does get ingrained in us on a deep level.
Everyone would do better with trying to be more understanding, including us men when we feel slightly targeted by people taking privilege correction a little too far.
Nope not going to let this crappy station dictate the taking points. Next
"I can't be as awful as I wanna be cause woke!!"
Internet group think means everyone has to walk on egg shells or be ostracized with downvotes pointless disagreements, ect...
Social media has put society into packs, with a pack mentality. It's often just better to not comment... And yes these things flow through to real life, and how shit goes down there too.
Any individual is at risk when situated in specific circumstances that can endanger their well-being.
Hatred is about discrimination, but hate itself doesn't discriminate.
No, but people don't have as much patience with me as with other stereotypes, and they do not care about me a lot of the time.
Which can be complicated because some mental predispositions make socializing hard for me, and I could really do with some more patience from other people.
It's more like walking on a football field and there are three eggs of endangered species on it, each surrounded by a dozen red flags. Normal ppl don't have a problem not stepping on them. You'd have to go out of your way and be a total ass to step on one.
Nope, not a bit.
In fact, I have to intentionally avoid dominating conversations accidentally.
Not particularly. I don't have too much crazy stuff to say. Certainly not in a work environment. Actually, the main group I have to censor myself around is my Mormon family. My mother, this is a real thing that has happened multiple times, cries when she hears the word "fuck". So they get a worse, straighter, less difficult version. Any of that would happen regardless of my race and gender. I personally cannot stand the overly sensitive, nor those that attempt to "trigger" them. If someone becomes unreasonably emotional after something relatively mild, that sounds like they need to develop thicker skin. If someone is trying to anger someone else, then they're just a dipshit. I try not to piss people off (I go further with my nonoffensiveness than I'd like), but I won't personally get pissed if someone insults me.