this post was submitted on 26 Sep 2025
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[–] Zeoic@lemmy.world 74 points 2 weeks ago (7 children)

Its wonderful how they just drop the "20% is gas" part from that headline. Yes, burning gas is cheap, but it is also aweful for the environment and shouldn't be getting considered at all.. 20% of a fuck ton of power is still a shitload of power. I think that's how those units work anyway.

[–] corsicanguppy@lemmy.ca 21 points 2 weeks ago

Fracking methane should be excluded. It's 80 times worse for the environment than even CO2.

[–] Aatube@kbin.melroy.org 6 points 2 weeks ago (5 children)
[–] Zeoic@lemmy.world 14 points 2 weeks ago

That was an extrapolation from where they said renewables would cover 80% in the article. I can only assume the mentioned gas would be the other 20%

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[–] humanspiral@lemmy.ca 6 points 2 weeks ago

They undersell the benefits of renewables significantly overall. This is for UK which they come out with slightly lower costs for omitting solar. They also say 5 years to build a 120mw microgrid. 1 post driller, 1 crane for support posts, with 2 workers guiding post insertion and cleaning up, 1 "wall of panels" crane lifter, with 3 workers aligning connecting panels on the ground, and then connecting wall to posts can get 40kw/hour=320kw/day. Complete in little over a year. But, in solar, 9 crews can really make a baby in 1 month.

Microgrids don't need permits, and utilities will give them an import connection.

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[–] reksas@sopuli.xyz 31 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (2 children)

have datacenters get their power only from renewables and limit the amount of area they have to build them and watch renewable efficiency skyrocket as they either have to develop them or have limited power.

[–] justsomeguy@lemmy.world 25 points 2 weeks ago (2 children)

Are you trying to trick tech companies into being useful? That'll upset them.

[–] HeyThisIsntTheYMCA@lemmy.world 13 points 2 weeks ago (2 children)

Someone tell Silicon Valley: They should put datacenters on trains so no one knows where they are. gonna need HSR for it to work properly tho.

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[–] Tja@programming.dev 6 points 2 weeks ago (2 children)

Renewable efficiency is close to the theoretical limit. Solar cell have a limit just over 33% and current models have efficiency of around 25%.

[–] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 9 points 2 weeks ago (2 children)

Renewable efficiency is close to the theoretical limit.

There's still plenty of juice to squeeze in terms of cost to manufacturer, deploy, and maintain. This isn't purely a question of cell efficiency.

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[–] reksas@sopuli.xyz 4 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

if the component is at its limit, then you can come up with ways to use that component more efficiently. Also reducing the size of the whole thing also increases efficiency singe you can stuff more of them in same area

[–] Tja@programming.dev 7 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

Tha area is given by the suns light. The sun gives us around 1000w per m2. The theoretical limit is 330w converted to electrical power. Current panels achieve 250w.

This is not a GPU, making things smaller doesn't give you any gains.

[–] reksas@sopuli.xyz 4 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago)

it doesnt have to be just solar power gained from solarcells, there could be all kinds of novel solutions to get more out of what can be harnessed. Things could be combined to get better results or they could be used for unconventional things to get something new.

But such innovation doesnt happen unless there is need for it, and companies dont see renewable energy as big priority as rest of us, otherwise there would be crazy competition for who invents better stuff and still using fossil fuels would get you laughed at. Only way to create such need is to force companies into it by threatening profits more directly, as looming eco collapse doesnt seem to concern them since its oh so many quarters away.

[–] Aatube@kbin.melroy.org 28 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

a commenter:

They claim to compare the cost of powering a 120MW data centre from a dedicated 470MW RR SMR compared to powering it from an 80MW gas turbine plus some unspecified number of wind, solar, and battery installations. For a study supposedly promoting wind, solar and battery technology, you would think they would tell us how many, what size, and what model of wind turbines they are modelling. But no, that's left to vague hand waving.

[–] Aatube@kbin.melroy.org 9 points 2 weeks ago (7 children)

on review this doesn't appear to be entirely true; see my other comment: https://lemmy.world/post/36518843/19617823. still no specification behind the 43.4% stat, tho

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[–] SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca 26 points 2 weeks ago

AI is another dot com style bubble. How about we all just be quiet about that so billionaires blow a lot of hype driven investment dollars on green energy?

Once the bubble bursts there will be a surplus of cheap green energy we can use for powering homes and EVs and such. Obviously there's better ways to do this than scamming billionaires into a hype train, but global warming is a problem now and we can't wait for our society to change to be able to address the problem in a rational way.

So... sure.... AI is the future! We need to build a lot of wind and solar power so we can have AI! We don't need this for woke global warming reasons, no no no. We need this for $$$$$$AAAAAAAAAAAAIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ reasons! Increase shareholder value by making wind turbine and solar panels, you must do this because it's illegal not to maximize shareholder value!!!!!! Build wind and solar so you can someday fire all of your employees! For the shareholders!

[–] FishFace@lemmy.world 22 points 2 weeks ago

Wind and solar ᵃⁿᵈ ᵍᵃˢ

[–] Schlemmy@lemmy.ml 16 points 2 weeks ago (2 children)

Of course. Renewable blows nuclear out of orbit when it comes to price. Nuclear plants take decades to build and are generally a lot more expensive than estimated.

[–] humanspiral@lemmy.ca 6 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

The Vogtle scam's end cost was $17/watt. $8B or $4/watt was just financing costs prior to eventual operation that Georgia Power got to charge its customers for its share, over the 20 years before it gave them power from the boondoggle.

Solar costs under $1/watt to deploy, and batteries in a container (can fit under solar) costs $1 per 10 watt-hours of storage. Both last over 30 years.

SMR's can pretend lower capital costs per watt, when excluding design/prototype time, but trade much more expensive enriched (proliferation risk) fuel that is less efficient, needs breeder reactors to provide likely from Russia, and carries higher security costs per watt. SMRs are simply a new scam to defraud investors with because nuclear is worthless as energy, and only ever is for military applications.

[–] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 5 points 2 weeks ago (3 children)

SMR’s can pretend lower capital costs per watt, when excluding design/prototype time, but trade much more expensive enriched (proliferation risk) fuel that is less efficient

The primary appeal of SMRs is their portability. Pointless for a data center, but vital for a large vehicle like a cruise liner or a shipping frigate.

Replacing our fleet of bunker fuel powered ships would be enormously beneficial.

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[–] kameecoding@lemmy.world 4 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

That's mostly because the west has become a bad place to build things, bike-shedding and a general loss of nuclear building expertise lost due to successful campaigning against nuclear by the fossil fuel industry.

We could be scaling up nuclear right now to help the goals for 2050 to be reached and then coast for a while as renewables pickup pace and fusion is finally cracked.

But no only thing people care about is immediate cost.

Yes renewables are cheaper per kw at the moment but they are also putting a lot of strain on the grid that's not accounted for that's expensive to upgrade, they are also not scaling up fast enough, which means there will be added cost to climate change.

Vs we could build nuclear reactors at a loss and bring on serious gigawatts of clean energy in a decade that would provide a stable baseline.

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[–] HugeNerd@lemmy.ca 6 points 2 weeks ago (2 children)

Which is why I always laugh when people say to replace a 15 year old fridge to "save" on electricity. Why? It's as cheap as the wind, making and shipping a new fridge isn't.

[–] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 4 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago)

Which is why I always laugh when people say to replace a 15 year old fridge to “save” on electricity.

Really depends on how much your electricity costs relative to your efficiency gain on the new fridge.

But refrigerators are also largely a "solved" technology. We aren't radicallu changing how we run a compressor or insulate a unit. I ended up getting a new one recently because my old refrigerator's repair bill was going to be as much as a new unit.

Now, if units were more modular and easier/cheaper to repair? The math changes.

[–] Prox@lemmy.world 3 points 2 weeks ago (2 children)

"I'm going to spend $1500 so I can save $8/month."

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[–] acosmichippo@lemmy.world 5 points 2 weeks ago (5 children)

problem is solar and wind are variable and not feasible everywhere. for places like australia solar is amazing. Winter in canada? not so much. So for a baseline you’d have to store a massive amount of energy in some way.

if you plan on batteries that requires lots of precious metals we will need elsewhere to aid in the transition to electric power.

[–] MonkderVierte@lemmy.zip 4 points 2 weeks ago

problem is solar and wind are variable and not feasible everywhere.

Offshore wind is constant.

[–] Schlemmy@lemmy.ml 3 points 2 weeks ago

Hydro energy to the rescue.

[–] Aatube@kbin.melroy.org 3 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

the studied location is the UK

[–] echodot@feddit.uk 7 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago)

The UK has one of the largest wind farms in the world, I think it actually is the largest in the world. One of the wind farms was built just off the coast of Scotland right next to trump's golf course and I'm sure it was built mostly just to annoy him.

Solar however is a lot less reliable, just because it's not particularly sunny here and also with it being so far north during the winter the nights are quite long.

The government says that the intention is to go 100% renewable but what they actually mean is as much renewable as possible, plus nuclear cover the load. No one thinks you can 100% be on solar and wind.

[–] kameecoding@lemmy.world 2 points 2 weeks ago

if you plan on batteries that requires lots of precious metals we will need elsewhere to aid in the transition to electric power.

Umm, what about sodium-ion that are now getting put into production?

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[–] Aatube@kbin.melroy.org 5 points 2 weeks ago (8 children)

Actual paper (not calling this a study since this appears to be non–peer-reviewed and only self-published): https://microgridai.centrefornetzero.org/ Be advised that this website relies on some Chromium-only trickery.

renewable microgrids [...] compared to nuclear small modular reactors

A 95% renewable microgrid with 5% gas backup - in line with the UK’s Clean Power 2030 target - was modelled at almost a third (31.7%) lower cost than scenario 1 in today’s prices. In this model, the gas is restricted to just under 80MW (2/3rds the size of the data centre) and the model correspondingly chooses a larger battery for storage, and increases the size of wind and solar technologies.

I'm confused; how does 5% equal 2/3 the size of the data center modeled?

(Edit: Someone else suggested this: "I think the gas can supply 2/3 of the power that the data centre requires for situations when there is no sun or wind but only makes up 5% of the total energy used over a year.")

They include a link to the model: https://github.com/ryanjenkinson/data-centre-modelling

[–] dharmacurious@slrpnk.net 5 points 2 weeks ago

Without having read it myself, perhaps they mean 5% of total usage. So the gas generation is built to be able to handle 2/3rds of the power demand, in case of outage as a backup, but in normal operation will only contribute 5% of the energy demand. That way, in the event of a failure of the renewable energy source for whatever reason, or a failure in the batteries, the gas can kick in and keep the servers online while cutting disposal operations that represent 1/3 of the total.

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[–] jaykrown@lemmy.world 4 points 2 weeks ago

Thankfully wind and solar are cheap and require a low up front investment, otherwise it couldn't be. We need to continue to invest in battery technology, sodium batteries are the way forward.

[–] sobchak@programming.dev 4 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

A lot of the companies and people responsible for having all these datacenters built are heavily invested in SMR. So they'll probably be used anyways.

[–] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 6 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

For a modern scaled up data center, there's no real benefit to nuclear miniturization. That's the sort of technology best employed on shipping frigates and space stations - places where portability is a priority.

You don't need to pick up a date center the size of 70 football fields and send it anywhere.

[–] SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca 2 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

Shipping frigates? Sure, lets give the Houthis and Somali pirates the capability of building dirty bombs.

And if solar power is cheaper on Earth, think of how much more cheaper it is in space where there isn't an atmosphere getting in the way.

Sometimes a tech is really cool, but there just isn't any viable use case for it.

[–] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 2 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

Sure, lets give the Houthis and Somali pirates the capability of building dirty bombs.

What are you talking about?

And if solar power is cheaper on Earth, think of how much more cheaper it is in space

There's an R^2 drop off as you travel away from the sun.

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[–] individual@toast.ooo 2 points 2 weeks ago

interesting, never heard this before

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