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85% Of Car Drivers Break 20mph Speed Limits, Reveals U.K.’s Department For Transport
(www.forbes.com)
this post was submitted on 24 Aug 2023
295 points (93.3% liked)
Fuck Cars
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I can't get behind property seizure without compensation, but I can understand everything else.
Even if they said "you can't have this car any more, but can sell it from our facility" that'd be better I think
Normally me neither, bit in this context where you are driving so recklessly you are endangering everyone else and we are talking over double the speed limit I'll allow it. Noone has any rights left when you are doing that kind of stuff deliberately.
@TDCN @GBU_28 i’m genuinely missing how the state keeping the car versus giving it back to the leasing agency is a reasonable choice. Why does the owner of the car, if it is not the violator, get to get fucked by this?
As I wrote to someone else my reasoning is this. It puts the responsibility into the hands of the car owner. Just replace the word car with gun and it all sounds reasonable. If I just lend my gun to a friend who I only know very little or I have never seen hold a gun in his hand that would be very bad. Or if a company leases big guns that are super dangerous. Even if he has a license for guns. And if he shot someone or broke the law in other ways with the gun I’d only expect the gun to be confiscated regardless of who owns it.
@TDCN @jbsegal Here's a concrete example of something I would've hated when I was younger and thought freedom and individual rights were everything but now that I'm older and understand that we live in a society (or at least it would be nice if we did), I love it.
@TDCN @jbsegal @GBU_28 quite, that is punishing an innocent party, which seems like a major human rights issue.
@jbsegal @TDCN @GBU_28 they have to demand compensation from the driver
@jamesjm @TDCN @GBU_28 this presumes a: the perpetrator has compensation they can pay to the car owner, B: that the car owner can deal without the car, or without the compensation, for the length of time it takes to get the lawsuit processed and paid out. This is not fair to the owner. Punish the fuck out of the perpetrator, sure. Don’t fuck the car owner.
In effect, is it really that different to a fine? It seems to have a couple of advantages, though: it's easier to collect, and it's proportional, so a person who can afford a fancy luxury car pays more than someone in an old banger, without the complexity of having to evaluate their income and savings.
This is exactly the reason they are doing it. Proportional to income and the car is completely and physically removed from the road. There was a big issue here where the offender would just drive without license or the car was leased or borrowed so there was no real penalty. Now the leasing company would have to take responsibility for leasing fancy supercars to anyone and everyone and people lending their car to a known drunk or fast driver would definitely think twice.
@TDCN
That part is all good. The problem is they don't care whose car it is. If I was to borrow your car, and then break this law, then YOU are out a car. Yes, you can try and get the money back from me, but that might take a decade if I don't have money to replace your car.
If you ask me, that's crazy.
Well I agree it might be a bit crazy, but I also must admit that I like the law because it works and it makes it such that I don't want to lend my car out to anyone unless I know for sure how they drive by driving with them a few times. It puts the responsibility into the hands of the car owner. Just replace the word car with gun and it all sounds reasonable. If I just lend my gun to a friend who I only know very little or I have never seen hold a gun in his hand that would be very bad. Even if he has a license for guns. And if he shot someone or broke the law in other ways with the gun I'd only expect the gun to be confiscated regardless of who owns it.
@TDCN @joland here in the Netherlands the fine for a traffic violation is already up to the owner to sort out. They don’t give AF who drove the car. Your car. Your responsibility. Your problem.
I like that actually
@sheean @TDCN @joland Except it's not proportional to one's income. I lived in Denmark and I like how they do things quite a bit better.
@TDCN @joland replacing car with gun or riffle makes it even more absurd. You saying that if I lend a riffle to someone on a hunt, I should bear the consequences for their actions if they miss and hit something? Thankfully the law in rest of Scandinavia isn’t as insane…
There's a significant difference between an accident and deliberately being wrekless
@TDCN There is nothing about being “wreckless” when borrowing something to someone else. If person has a valid driving license that is all that matters. We ain’t even taking about lending a car to a obviously drunk idiot which is punishable.
But the law will definitely make me think twice before lending my car to anyone.
@joland @TDCN it's the same as if you crash a borrowed car while doing something that invalidates the insurance, eg racing.
@joland @TDCN
There is only a problem when the car was stolen from the owner.
@joland @TDCN I think it’s good. Don’t lend your car to friends that you know don’t respect the law
@TDCN @threedaymonk exemption for stolen cars?
@GBU_28 @TDCN In Australia we have a law that lets the police make you watch while they crush your car.
@GBU_28 play stupid games, win stupid prizes. Driving a car is not a right. Especially in Denmark where public transport is an perfectly viable alternative for most of the population.
@GBU_28 @TDCN the compensation is "not getting a life sentence", I think it's very fair
@GBU_28 @TDCN Yes, but in this case it is rather an illegally owned weapon than a car we are talking about.
@GBU_28 @TDCN
Then don't drink and speed.
Done.
@GBU_28 @TDCN I can get behind a law like this in the states. Too many drunk drivers who kill have had close calls before and were able to get back in their cars and do it over and over. Auction the car and any $ from that should be deemed a fine.
@briankrebs @GBU_28 @TDCN We finally got rid of civil forfeiture. Thank goodness. It was such a corrupting incentive to police forces. It works on the first case, and then it is just abused by municipalities to line everyone's pocket.
@hwyaden @briankrebs @GBU_28 @TDCN i guess it depends a lot on your baseline of corruption which I guess is fairly low in denmark. Even if some corruption happens, I'd rather have that than people killing other people.
@GBU_28 @TDCN
If leasing companies face no loss, they can continue to lease supercars to morons.
@GBU_28 @TDCN this is basically an income adjusted fine for breaking the law in egregious ways. Are you also opposed to fines for other bad behavior?
I also appreciate that it gets more people thinking about ways to move without a car. that is more doable in Denmark then in the US, but cars are dangerous, and if you put other at risk so casually I have little sympathy.
For the sake of conversation, let's consider some other owned object. I'm grasping here but say you had your computer seized for anti government speech. (I know, not the same as endangering people with a car).
It wouldn't be right to lose a multi thousand dollar device simply because the government willed it. Certainly not without compensation.
It also makes people think twice before lending their car to any random friend
@GBU_28 @TDCN Think of the car as a "dual use" item - i.e. you can use it as transport or to (potentially) get other people injured or killed.
The law aims at the second (mis)use. Even though I'm a car-loving German I really second that part of the Danish law and I honestly wish we would have something similar.
@GBU_28 @TDCN, really??
You happily can endanger other people's lives but can't have your means to do so taken away?
Same for CEOs of companies going bankrupt: you can take away others livelihood by your decisions but nobody can touch your hording.
That sounds like rich person's privilege syndrome!
@TDCN @GBU_28 no! If you know the consequences beforehand, not a problem!! As the old saying goes, if you can’t serve the time, don’t do the crime.