this post was submitted on 14 Feb 2025
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33
SkyNews | The number of people on NHS waiting lists in England has fallen for the fourth month in a row, new figures show. (xcancel.com)
submitted 1 week ago by blackn1ght@feddit.uk to c/unitedkingdom@feddit.uk
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[–] Rogue@feddit.uk 11 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (1 children)

Waiting lists are a fucking pointless target.

It simply encourages organisations not to add people to the wait list or to find any excuse to remove people from them.

  • Speech and language therapists will remove patients from their wait list because the patient did not answer or return phone calls. Its an absolutely ridiculous system that will penalise patients with speech impediments for being unable to handle phone calls.

  • Mental health services will insist patients see a trainee in order to meet their wait list target. Then if the patient is not satisfied with the trainee's competence the patient is added back to the wait list. However because the patient has technically been seen the target is met and the patient will end up waiting indefinitely because the service prioritises other patients in order to meet the wait list target.

The system is absolutely corrupt. Targets are fucking pointless.

[–] HumanPenguin@feddit.uk 5 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Honest question.

Yep any target based system leads to people manipulating them to pass. It is just a common human response to forced competition.

But calling wait lists pointless is also pointless. Without some better way to ensure patients are getting the service they need as effectively as possible.

So other then spending lots more money. (I agree thats needed but in itself dose not provide metrics of a service)

What would you propose as a method for measuring NHS effectivness.

[–] Rogue@feddit.uk 1 points 5 days ago (1 children)

I somehow replied to the wrong post. Here's what I meant to say:

But calling wait lists pointless is also pointless.

This is going to be ultra pedantic but in case I was misunderstood: I'm saying that using wait times as a target is pointless. Obvs we do need wait lists themselves...

What would you propose as a method for measuring NHS effectivness.

First I know I'm not qualified in any way to answer this and there will be people with knowledge who can provide a far better answer. But if you do want my opinion then I'd say a reasonable place to start would be to simply ask the patient. The written answers will be subjective but you can collate all the [yes/no] answers together to see objective patterns of whether patient satisfaction is improving or getting worse.

How long were you waiting? [Number of weeks] (Would be very interesting to compare this subjective answer to the actual recorded data)

Was the wait time acceptable? [Yes/No/I don't know]

-> Did your condition deteriorate as a result of the delay? [Yes/No/I don't know]

-> How did you condition deteriorate? [Answer in as many words as you like, or possibly a tree of yes/no questions]

Did you receive treatment? [Yes/No/I don't know]

-> Did the treatment improve your condition? [Yes/No/I don't know]

-> Why didn't the treatment help with your condition? [Answer in as many words as you like, or possibly a tree of yes/no questions]

Were you referred to another service? [Yes/No/I don't know]

-> Do you agree with the decision to refer you elsewhere? [Yes/No/I don't know]

-> Why don't you believe the referral is correct? [Answer in as many words as you like, or possibly a tree of yes/no questions]

Overall how satisfied were you satisfied? [0-10]

-> How could we improve? [Answer in as many words as you like, or possibly a tree of yes/no questions]

[–] HumanPenguin@feddit.uk 1 points 5 days ago

Grins. Just looked. Screw up happen i make more then my share :) PS sorry for any typos im visually impaired, after a while it just gets annoying to hunt for them.

Yeah, my calling wait list's pointless comment was more about having an effective alternative to measure NHS effectiveness. So we technically agree here.

My caution about using customer satisfaction. Is customers are less qualified than anyone to do so. In general they have 0 understanding of the workload involved and needs to triage the needs of a population. Heck, even if we just look at an ER environment. Where triage is litrally about life and death. Most patients are unable to place their own priorities appropriatly to those they see. Let alone based on medical knowledge, they cannot or should not see due to privacy or lack of medical understanding.

That same triage needs to happen when it comes to the effect of medical issues on quality of life.

If we accept more money is not going to happen ( Once again ill say it def needs to. But unlimited resources are never going to happen, no matter what % of our GDP we spend ). There will always be a need to prioritise some types of care over others. And the people receiving that care are the least qualified to make that decision.

Satisfaction is important. But, as this is not a retail or restaurant environment. The opinions of the recipiant of care are much less important data wise when it comes to how wer need to allocate the resources we have.

[–] Zip2@feddit.uk 11 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (1 children)

Because more of them have been treated, or because they’ve died off while waiting?

Is there a supporting article?

Edit: found an article

https://www.england.nhs.uk/2025/02/waiting-list-falls-as-nhs-staff-treated-record-numbers-last-year/

[–] Kaboom@reddthat.com 4 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Or third option, they're being prevented from getting on the lists to begin with

[–] DrCake@lemmy.world 4 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Or they are giving up and going private instead?

[–] Kaboom@reddthat.com 1 points 1 week ago (1 children)

So many options! They might have given up completely and just aren't seeking any healthcare anymore.

[–] Zip2@feddit.uk 2 points 1 week ago

Or they’ve emigrated!

[–] Twig@sopuli.xyz 7 points 1 week ago (1 children)

But Labour and "Keith" are literally the same as the Tories before them!!

[–] Rogue@feddit.uk 3 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

But calling wait lists pointless is also pointless.

This is going to be ultra pedantic but in case I was misunderstood: I'm saying that using wait times as a target is pointless. Obvs we do need wait lists themselves...

What would you propose as a method for measuring NHS effectivness.

First I know I'm not qualified in any way to answer this and there will be people with knowledge who can provide a far better answer. But if you do want my opinion then I'd say a reasonable place to start would be to simply ask the patient. The written answers will be subjective but you can collate all the [yes/no] answers together to see objective patterns of whether patient satisfaction is improving or getting worse.

How long were you waiting? [Number of weeks] (Would be very interesting to compare this subjective answer to the actual recorded data)

Was the wait time acceptable? [Yes/No/I don't know]

-> Did your condition deteriorate as a result of the delay? [Yes/No/I don't know]

-> How did you condition deteriorate? [Answer in as many words as you like, or possibly a tree of yes/no questions]

Did you receive treatment? [Yes/No/I don't know]

-> Did the treatment improve your condition? [Yes/No/I don't know]

-> Why didn't the treatment help with your condition? [Answer in as many words as you like, or possibly a tree of yes/no questions]

Were you referred to another service? [Yes/No/I don't know]

-> Do you agree with the decision to refer you elsewhere? [Yes/No/I don't know]

-> Why don't you believe the referral is correct? [Answer in as many words as you like, or possibly a tree of yes/no questions]

Overall how satisfied were you satisfied? [0-10]

-> How could we improve? [Answer in as many words as you like, or possibly a tree of yes/no questions]