this post was submitted on 04 Aug 2025
919 points (97.4% liked)

Political Memes

9126 readers
1750 users here now

Welcome to politcal memes!

These are our rules:

Be civilJokes are okay, but don’t intentionally harass or disturb any member of our community. Sexism, racism and bigotry are not allowed. Good faith argumentation only. No posts discouraging people to vote or shaming people for voting.

No misinformationDon’t post any intentional misinformation. When asked by mods, provide sources for any claims you make.

Posts should be memesRandom pictures do not qualify as memes. Relevance to politics is required.

No bots, spam or self-promotionFollow instance rules, ask for your bot to be allowed on this community.

No AI generated content.Content posted must not be created by AI with the intent to mimic the style of existing images

founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS
 
top 50 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] uriel238@lemmy.blahaj.zone 38 points 4 days ago (53 children)

So when the communist party came into power after the Bolshevik revolution, Wilson went to the League of Nations to negotiate a common embargo of the Soviet project, essentially sanctioning Russia the way we might sanction a nation for humanitarian wrongdoing.

This is to say Wilson was afraid of it actually working, which would jeopardize the industrial moguls who were already running the US.

This is also to say, the Soviet Union was doing a communism in hostile circumstances, much the way European monarchs pressured France to raise a new king after the revolution (leading to Napoleon's rise to power, the Levée en masse (general conscription) and the War of the First Coalition (or as is modernly known, Napoleon Kicks European Butt For A While ).

Historians can't really say, but the fact the red scare started with Wilson (and not after WWII) might have influenced events, including the corruption of the party and the rise of Stalin as an autocrat.

Also according to Prof. Larry Lessig, Boss Tweed in the 1850s worked to make sure the ownership class called all the shots in the United States, eventually driving us to Hoover and the Great Depression. FDR's New Deal (very much resented by the industrialists) was a last chance for Capitalism, which then got a boost because WWII commanded high levels of production and distracted us with a foreign enemy. Then the cold war.

So communism was really unlucky and didn't get a fair shake in the Soviet Union, and US free market capitalism got especially lucky in the 20th century, and we don't really know if either one can be held together for more than a century or two. EU capitalism is wavering, thanks to pressure from the far right, and neoliberalism failing to serve the public.

In the meantime, check out what's going on in Cuba, which isn't perfect, but is interesting.

[–] FlyingCircus@lemmy.world 16 points 4 days ago (1 children)

FYI, in the fifties the CIA wrote a memo where they stated that claims that Stalin was autocratic were largely exaggerated and the USSR largely had collective leadership.

https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP80-00810A006000360009-0.pdf

[–] outhouseperilous@lemmy.dbzer0.com 12 points 4 days ago (3 children)

On one hand, i don't trust the cia on anything. I dont even trust them to know what those words mean.

On the other; this us hilarious.

[–] uriel238@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (1 children)

< nerd-moment rant >

CIA is a big institution, and gathered a lot of very useful data, which it shares in the World Factbook. (At least those things that can be attained by open research, which is a lot) CIA also engages in espionage not only to gain hidden and secret information but to serve state interests, typically how the state department (under the executive) defines interests of the state.

And as with most espionage organizations, CIA is not above engaging in cruel, sometimes violent shenanigans. During the cold war, CIA secured the Americas from influence of the Soviet Union (containment) but also arranged exploitation rights to US centered companies, and were often messy about it. To be fair KGB was also about trying to influence countries to sell to USSR, so there was incentive to act aggressively and escalate towards brutality.

( Incidentally, all those American interest companies are now multi-national corporations, which means they have no real allegiance to the US, and evade paying taxes anyway. )

Also during the cold war, CIA was big on SIGINT (intercepting communications and listening in) where KGB was big on HUMINT (infiltrating offices and coercing officials to report to KGB). This is not to say these are the only methods they respectively used (CIA liked finding officials in need and bribing them, often arranging for goods and services they'd otherwise not have access to), so when KGB captured (and brutally killed) a spy, it was usually the informant, not the CIA employed handler that turned them.

Also of note, the Most Brutal Spy Agency award (probably a dagger-shaped trophy) would go to... Deuxième Bureau of the French Republic, who liked exotic James-Bond-style cinematic deaths, like throwing people out of a helicopter over a body of water. KGB did feed Oleg Penkovsky into a blast furnace, but he was a mole in KGB feeding information to the US. Moles are embarrassing when uncovered and no one likes them.

Anyhow, CIA = incompetent is a mostly 21st century trope, when George W. Bush and his administration replaced all the top management with cronies at a time post-USSR Russia (and the entire Baltic region) was undergoing a lot of political upheaval. The US needed a robust intelligence sector managing foreign affairs at the time. But that was just not meant to be.

The whole Valerie Plame incident (in which the administration burned a CIA employee for political revenge -- she escaped and made it home) demonstrated the meager level of respect Bush and crew had for the intelligence sector. After that, CIA, now a subdivision of DHS became reputed for torture and drone strike campaigns (which massacred fifty civilians for every killed POI), and worked with NSA to spy on Americans, under the color of looking for Terrorists.

Shit only gets worse from there. CIA would use the NSA mass surveillance program intel to create dossiers on Americans. Despite its conflicts with fourth-amendment protections, these files are used by secret courts -- FISA -- for secret trials, violating fifth- and sixth-amendment protections. These trials putting convicts on the Disposition Matrix (id est, Obama's kill list ) for abduction and rendition or straight execution.

And all these resources were available for Trump when he came into office. Fortunately he got in a spat with the CIA directorate in 2017, so they weren't as chummy with the White House early on as they were during the Obama administration. But now he has all those resources (though the upper echelons are MAGA loyalists and consequently double-plus-inept)

In the 1980s I wanted to be a spy... CIA researcher at Langley, actually, but I couldn't handle the language requirements. Also being a field operative is really, really hard on the soul, and it's no wonder James Bond drinks like Ian Flemming.

< /nmr >

[–] outhouseperilous@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (1 children)

cia is incompetent is new

Lol no. They woukd drug each other with lsd while on assignment through the whole later half of the cold war. Which, based, very cool, but not the best for winning cold wars.

most brutal

Do we include their proxies and 'school of the americas' grads as theirs? Because some of them also liked the helicopter trick. And worse things.

secured americans against

Sure thing sen. Mcarthy.

Really though. They said that's what they were doing. But they're kind of professional liars.

often messy about it

Fire is often thought of as warm

wanted to be a spy as a kid

Sure, before you learn what it really is. Try being a labor organizer; all the danger and intrigue, less language requirement and pay, plus it's easy on the conscience.

They were always streaked with incompetent shit heads. There's huge swathes of culture they just cant get people into, because they can't hire anyone from those cultures, and to work there your ability to understand shit has to wear serious horse blinders.

[–] uriel238@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 points 1 day ago (1 children)

I suggest we also collectively recall CIA can be both, given it's a pretty big institution. It's also been an evil fucker, presuming commercial interests based in the US count as US interests, even when those companies have become large multi-national corporations who actively avoid paying taxes.

I agree that it's gauche that surveillance companies will pass sufficiently saucy private pictures to their colleagues for a gander (a tradition since WWII that is still carried on in NSA deep-packet scans of internet communications. (That includes sext exchanges between teenage lovers.) Playing around with LSD (on each other, as a practical joke) sounds like it falls more into this category, which, I'll concede, is unprofessional especially for a department that has to sometimes engage in unethical action for sake of US national security, but that's different than incompetent

If I was going to be critical of them, it would be their propensity for assassinations (botched ones on occasion) when there were alternatives, abandoning liberation forces they had sworn to support and supply and putting down developing democratic regimes in favor of US-allied dictators. Or even that they fueled their budget by supporting and participating in major drug trafficking syndicates, but these things are not incompetent, they're immoral.

CIA's strength (in the 20th century, at least, was SIGINT, including codebreaking, and analysis (that is, developing accurate dossiers based on limited or scattered data), and CIA did a whole lot more of that than they did killing VIPs and supporting revolutionary force.

As a young adult, I realized being a field operative was dangerous, and besides I was better at research and analysis, which I wasn't imagining at all as a kid. Then by the time I understood the more gruesome parts of CIA history, George W. Bush was in office and they were torturing folks.

[–] outhouseperilous@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

different than incompetent

I guarantee, unless you're a mavhinery operator, your job is not effected as much by lsd as a professional liar/abuser.

they were doing torture in the bush admin

Do you mean bush2? Because, like... What do you call what they did to gary webb?

analysis, not down with torture

Hey, you know who doesnt have to do any torture? Labor organizers!

load more comments (2 replies)
load more comments (52 replies)
[–] Rooskie91@discuss.online 8 points 3 days ago

It's not the best system, it's the most addictive.

[–] miss_demeanour@lemmy.dbzer0.com 36 points 5 days ago
[–] Gigdragon@lemmy.world 5 points 3 days ago (1 children)

Capitalism fails every 4-7 years.

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] scarabic@lemmy.world 23 points 5 days ago (17 children)

It’s the best system when combined with strong regulation and good social safety nets. I wish everybody would focus on those things falling down and needing to be fixed instead of pretending we’re going to throw the whole system out tomorrow.

[–] Evkob@lemmy.ca 23 points 4 days ago (5 children)

It’s the best system when combined with strong regulation and good social safety nets.

Sure, it's just too bad it's also a system in which the most powerful are incentivized to cut regulations and destroy social safety nets.

This utopic version of capitalism sounds really nice, but it's fully incompatible with the actual reality of capitalism.

[–] Alaknar@sopuli.xyz 12 points 4 days ago (4 children)

This utopic version of capitalism sounds really nice, but it’s fully incompatible with the actual reality of capitalism.

All it takes for capitalism to work flawlessly is... checks notes... a fundamental change in human nature, where we no longer feel greed.

EZPZ. Best system ever designed!

(don't tell anyone that this would equally make communism work)

[–] FlyingCircus@lemmy.world 7 points 4 days ago (1 children)

If a socio-economic system incentives greed to the point where a person who is not greedy is literally unable to succeed, can you really say that greed is human nature?

[–] Alaknar@sopuli.xyz 2 points 3 days ago

Of course it is! Just like violence, murder, rape, etc., etc. We're just better at handling some nasty parts of our nature than others. Especially because for the longest time incentivizing greed was leading to the betterment of the individual (and, accidentally, sometimes also the commune).

We punish murderers, but we don't punish CEOs running a company to the ground for a short-term increase in share prices. Or, hell, look at US healthcare insurance companies - these people DO MURDER, but because it's called different on paper, and brings profits, nobody is getting punished.

load more comments (3 replies)
load more comments (4 replies)
[–] theparadox@lemmy.world 13 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago) (9 children)

It’s the best system when combined with strong regulation and good social safety nets.

Both regulation and social safety nets run counter to the concept of a free market and a free market is central to the definition of Capitalism.

That's like saying "The best form of travel is unrestrained forward acceleration" with the caveat that it must be combined with the ability to break and steer.

[–] scarabic@lemmy.world 17 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago) (2 children)

No, it’s like saying that the best form of transportation is some form of forward locomotive force kept in check by brakes and steering. Like, you know actual cars.

Basically you’re looking at a Toyota Corolla and saying “What? Some of its parts move it forward, and some of its parts stop it from moving? That’s a total contradiction! It’s central to the definition of a car that it move forward!”

Yes regulation and social safety nets run counter, that’s the point.

There’s no one concept which makes for a good system in a totally undiluted form. Pure centralized economy: disaster. Pure capitalism, disaster.

Capitalism tempered by regulation and socialism: a balance of economic dynamism and humanist restraint.

The core of your argument seems to be that the only form of capitalism is unrestrained capitalism and we just don’t agree on those semantics. I believe a free market system can be governed and taxed to support social welfare. You believe that capitalism can only be unrestrained. Well, my version of reality is everywhere we look: both Europe and the US are examples of free market economies with some safety net and regulation attached. Europe is stronger on the latter two but the US is hardly at zero.

load more comments (2 replies)
load more comments (8 replies)
load more comments (15 replies)
[–] MiddleAgesModem@lemmy.world 7 points 4 days ago (9 children)
[–] MrMcGasion@lemmy.world 7 points 3 days ago

At the very least heavy regulation to prevent unfair practices. Humans will pretty much always optimize the fun out of everything.

Take competitive video games for example, where once something becomes the meta, it's used and abused until it gets nerfed. But people still play hundreds of games with whatever the most optimal meta is, even if it takes the fun and variety out of the game and makes it boring.

Pretty much every economic system ends up the same way, people figure out the most optimal ways to exploit whatever the system is, take the fun and fairness out of it, and ruin it for anyone who doesn't want to play by the meta. In an ideal system, there's strong regulatory systems in place (for example the FTC and the CFPB) that work to balance things and make sure the system works for everyone. But the people who like to optimize the fun out of things have decided they'd like the regulators out of the way so they can go crazy with their exploitation.

[–] ghen@sh.itjust.works 8 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago)

Techno fascism? No wait that's what we're turning into

[–] whoisearth@lemmy.ca 6 points 4 days ago (5 children)
[–] lefixxx@lemmy.world 2 points 3 days ago

Whatever Norway is doing

load more comments (4 replies)
[–] ICastFist@programming.dev 4 points 3 days ago

Any where such stupidly high wealth inequality cannot happen, or at least that doesn't put "the economy" as the most important thing in the universe, environment, communities and individuals be damned

load more comments (5 replies)
[–] outhouseperilous@lemmy.dbzer0.com 6 points 4 days ago (2 children)

Advocates of capitalism 50 years ago: you dont understand! Caputalism is good bevause people arent, and capitalism harnesses our vices to make us productive! It turns our vices into virtues!

Advocates of capitalism today: no we dont need to get rid of it, we just need to fix it and add virtue and decency! Oh shit, i need to go out today, where's my gas mask and iodine?

load more comments (2 replies)
[–] SpikesOtherDog@ani.social 13 points 5 days ago (5 children)

Was the .com crash bad for average people? I was not yet financially responsible for myself then.

load more comments (5 replies)
load more comments
view more: next ›