Quite a few sequels have to retcon the characters progression from the first movie to have a story to tell. What are examples of sequels who managed to avoid that? : movies

[–] Steve@communick.news 20 points 6 days ago (4 children)

I would actually push back on the premise. Does it happen? Of course. But it's almost certainly not most sequels. None of the Marvel movies did it. The recent Bond series didn't. The Twilight movies didn't. The Hunger games didn't. The Lord of The Rings didn't. The Star Wars movies didn't. Back to the Future didn't.

In fact I would say it happens when no sequel was ever planned or imagined possible. That's when you make a simple character with only one issue or problem to overcome, and it gets resolved in the one planned movie. But if you think of a larger story beyond the one movie, you'll create more complex characters with more need and ability to evolve over time.

[–] MirrorGiraffe@piefed.social 16 points 6 days ago (1 children)

Back to the future added that weird "nobody calls me a chicken" shtick to Marty which came out of nowhere and was not present in the first movie. Then they proceeded to rebuild his entire character around it on the sequels.

[–] Steve@communick.news 14 points 6 days ago (2 children)

Is that a retcon? Does it rewrite an aspect of his character? Or is it just an aspect that didn't come up in the first movie?

[–] MirrorGiraffe@piefed.social 8 points 6 days ago (1 children)

Seeing them back to back it felt like a weak asspull, even my kids reacted to it. But I didn't rewatch the first movie to see if it actually conflicts with original Marty. With it happening constantly in the sequels and never once in the original it's either poor writing or they changed him. Or both.

[–] DagwoodIII@piefed.social 10 points 6 days ago (1 children)

iirc the first movie makes Marty look like his Dad, a schlub whose only friend is a weird old guy. He doesn't push back against the teachers when they throw him out of the talent show.

Hardly a daredevil who never backs down from a challenge.

[–] chaos@beehaw.org 14 points 6 days ago (1 children)

I think you've cracked it, Marty changes his past so that he grew up with a more assertive and confident father, so when the changes catch up to him in the second movie he suddenly has a new personality trait that he didn't have before!

[–] DagwoodIII@piefed.social 5 points 6 days ago

You're giving me credit for an idea I did not have.

But you are correct; it's Lone Pine writ large.

[–] HubertManne@piefed.social 3 points 6 days ago

100% not a retcon in my book.

[–] Blaze@piefed.zip 8 points 6 days ago (1 children)

The Star Wars movies didn’t.

Star Wars is an interesting case, there are some issues like the whole "from a certain point of view" debate (Anakin and Vader where still separate characters in early draft of ESB - https://screenrant.com/empire-strikes-back-original-script-anakin-vader-leia-change/ ) , Leia and Luke romantic tension ( https://www.inverse.com/entertainment/star-wars-empire-strikes-back-luke-leia-kiss-history ), or the fact that there's a second Death Star two movies after the first one is destroyed.

Lucas definitely had a few ideas when he started the first movie, but he still had to retcon quite a lot of elements as he went further in the saga

[–] HubertManne@piefed.social 3 points 6 days ago (1 children)

how much time elapsed between new hope and return? I feel like they could have been on hoth for awhile. Yeah they barely had the fighters setup for cold but with the base and finding hoth and such it could be years. Then between empire and return you have a whole bunch of offscreen stuff. Luke makes his own saber and seems to have done some sort of self training given how good he got (maybe more with yoda but it did not sound like that when he speaks with him). It was implied lando had to find where han was taken and stake it out and the whole plan had to be figured out and implemented and they knew he was safe sitting as a decoration. I mean that could be over a year or years as well.

[–] Blaze@piefed.zip 2 points 6 days ago (1 children)

The issue isn't the time required to build another one, just that it's weird to see the same "big evil thing to destroy" two times in a trilogy.

[–] HubertManne@piefed.social 3 points 6 days ago (1 children)

I mean they used it and it worked pretty effectively the first time. Like if someone had destroyed our nuke stockpile after hiroshima I think we would make more or if like the first carrier had been sunk but the concept proved effective I think we would make another.

[–] Blaze@piefed.zip 2 points 6 days ago

The weapon makes sense, it's just a bit uninspired from a story telling perspective

[–] IWW4@lemmy.zip 5 points 6 days ago (3 children)

The Star Wars movie did.

Luke and Leia being siblings. The father thing

[–] Steve@communick.news 10 points 6 days ago (1 children)

Maybe I have a different idea of what a retcon is.
Those are just new things. They don't roll back and change anything from the first movie. Luke was always an orphan who didn't know anything about his original family, so filling in that gap with new information isn't a retcon.

[–] IWW4@lemmy.zip 4 points 6 days ago (2 children)

Well, I mean, that’s the heart of this whole discussion exactly what is the definition of a retcon?

I mean in Star Wars one of the big moments of episode four when it was just Star Wars was that Darth Vader killed Luke’s father.

That was later changed to became when Luke’s father became Darth Luke’s dad died. I mean, that’s a pretty significant alteration of the original story.

[–] Steve@communick.news 8 points 6 days ago

But again Luke's father dying didn't happen in episode 4. At that point it was just a story Luke was told. Turns out Luke was lied to. That's completely reasonable.

[–] antonim@lemmy.dbzer0.com 4 points 6 days ago (1 children)

That's not an alteration of the original, the original (but isn't The Empire Strikes Back a part of the original anyway?) was simply Kenobi's retelling of what happened, not a narratively "objective" instance. Vader telling the story in a different way does not create any fundamental contradiction with the previous narrative.

Anyway, the original SW trilogy is much too homogenously constructed to warrant this sort of criticism in general. It's like saying Sophocles "retconned" Oedipus' story by revealing he had killed his father. A more problematic point would be e.g. the introduction of midichlorians in the prequels, which didn't unambiguously contradict the original trilogy but it sharply differed in spirit from it and had undesirable implications (genetic superiority of the Jedis).

[–] IWW4@lemmy.zip 4 points 6 days ago (1 children)

(but isn't The Empire Strikes Back a part of the original anyway?) was

No. One thing that Lucas very firmly illustrated is that he never had a grand vision of an over all storyline. He made it up as he went along.

[–] antonim@lemmy.dbzer0.com 4 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago)

That doesn't matter too much. He certainly had the intent to build the story beyond the first movie, and, putting aside these external circumstances and focusing on the movie itself, the 1st movie does not form a coherent complete narrative yet, in isolation it barely works.

Compare it with other film trilogies: clearly SW OT is more similar to LOTR and Matrix than to Godfather and Jurassic Park. In the latter cases it makes sense to speak of the original, not so much in the former.

[–] Klear@quokk.au 6 points 6 days ago

OP writes "retcon the characters progression from the first movie", which I read as the character being put in front of the same obstacles they had to overcome originally, or regress in whatever way they evolved in the first movie, or something like that.

The family ties thing does nothing like that. Luke still has his force powers. He does get to do the training with Yoda, which is arguably similar to his training with Obi-Wan, but it's not like he's starting from from scratch again. He just needs to level up to have a shot at taking on Vader.

[–] Doubleohdonut@lemmy.ca 4 points 6 days ago (1 children)

I was gonna say! And don't forget the prequels. And then the next sequels.

[–] IWW4@lemmy.zip 5 points 6 days ago

Omg the prequels took it to a whole other level.

Hell I forget to point out that Obi Wan reconned how Luke’s dad died…

[–] HubertManne@piefed.social 4 points 6 days ago

thanks as my first thought was. Is that all that common? It does not seem to be in most movies sequels I have seen.

[–] IWW4@lemmy.zip 14 points 6 days ago (2 children)

Sequels that didn’t.

Conan the Destroyer
Halloween II
Friday the 13th ad nauseam
All the Sherlock Holmes sequels
28 Weeks Later
Aliens
Another 48 Hours
the Beverly Hills Cop flicks
Rambo 2 and 3
Crocodile Dundee 2
Death Wish 1 through 5
The Dirty Harry Sequels

I argue that most sequels don’t retcon

[–] Kolanaki@pawb.social 4 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago)

I argue that most sequels don’t retcon

Fr. I think I could make a shorter list of sequels that fit OP's description of retconning character progression than of movies that don't do that. And of all the ones that do, half of them are Spider-Man movies or not sequels, but reboots and re-makes.

[–] calliope@retrolemmy.com 5 points 6 days ago (1 children)

I agree with a lot of these, but Friday the 13th was clearly retconned between 1 and 2 and should be replaced with Nightmare on Elm Street.

Throughout Nightmare on Elm Street, Freddy is still Freddy and the details they change weren’t forced to make a decent sequel.

Friday the 13th was obviously retconned between 1 and 2. Spoilers for Friday the 13th parts 1 and 2 below.

Tap for spoilers

Jason is only in part 1 right at the very end, of course, and he’s a younger boy, 14 or so, kinda skinny, living at the bottom of Crystal Lake. It’s one of the best jump-scares ever if you’re not expecting it.

They made him a huge, hulking adult in part 2, retconning the major jump scare in part 1.

I think they talk about this in the book Crystal Lake Memories. They had to make him more menacing to make it interesting.

They weren’t wrong, it became the series trademark.

[–] IWW4@lemmy.zip 3 points 6 days ago (1 children)

His mother was the murder in the first one and she was killed. Is having him grow up a retcon?

[–] calliope@retrolemmy.com 2 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago) (1 children)

Yes, as I said they very clearly talk about how they changed the character completely between 1 and 2 in the book of interviews about the movies.

Having a ghost child mysteriously grow up after being stuck in a lake and having his mom go on a murder spree was a retcon specifically for a sequel, yeah. They retroactively changed Jason’s continuity for the sequels.

When was the last time you saw these movies? If it was recently we wouldn’t be having this conversation.

[–] IWW4@lemmy.zip 1 points 6 days ago (1 children)

But there really isn’t much those movies… a bunch of really hot teenagers go off to a lake and a dude chops the, up with the super creepy soundtrack in the background. don’t overthink it

[–] calliope@retrolemmy.com 2 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago)

Hear me out: that’s what I mean!

They are some of the silliest movies ever, but they cared so much how he became the character he became throughout the sequels.

So it’s funny that between 1 and 2 they’re just like “jeez I don’t know, grew monstrous somehow and no one saw him?”

The first one is the only time there’s any kind of continuity weirdness. I would argue the continuity is what makes the series as a whole fun to watch. From sequel to sequel they’ll keep the dents and cuts in his mask, they take some continuity strangely seriously.

Even when it gets downright stupid, like he gets tied underwater after part 7(?), they take it seriously how he gets out in part 8. The ghost killer guy. It’s amazing.

[–] Blaze@piefed.zip 10 points 6 days ago (1 children)

Kind of a random thought I had the other day while watching Frozen II. They had to completely erase Elsa's evolution in the first movie to tell another story. None of her decisions in the second movie make sense when you watch both movies back to back.

[–] Klear@quokk.au 4 points 6 days ago (1 children)

Mind if I flip the question on you and ask for more examples of movies that do this? I'm, not doubting there's plenty, but I'm tired and can't think of any.

I did notice Predator 1/2 and to some extent Terminator 1/2 sidestep this by switching to a different protagonist. A lot of horror movie series do this too.

And, of course, games do this all the time, especially RPGs. Gothic comes to mind immediately. There's some justification to it, but generally it's something people let slide since building up a character is part of the fun.

[–] 0ops@piefed.zip 3 points 6 days ago

On the marvel side of things there's the Wandavision show and the doctor strange multiverse movie. The movie takes place right after the show, but character-progression-wise Wanda at the start of the movie might as well be at the start of the show

[–] psx_crab@lemmy.zip 4 points 6 days ago (2 children)

It's been a long while but I think back to the future manage to squeeze in two sequel without retcon the character.

Also Cloudy With a Chance of Meatball 2 is so guilty of this, they have to change so much to fit in the villain of the movie. Also Sam and Manny is somehow a resident of Swallow Falls that is now displaced, despite being based in New York and travel to Swallow Falls for the news coverage. The whole plot is mediocre too.

[–] WhiskyTangoFoxtrot@lemmy.world 2 points 6 days ago (1 children)

It's been a long while but I think back to the future manage to squeeze in two sequel without retcon the character.

Except the whole "nobody calls me chicken" bit.

[–] psx_crab@lemmy.zip 1 points 6 days ago

Yeah, that part is weird to be used as a plot device.

[–] Zahille7@lemmy.world 2 points 6 days ago

I mean it's based on a couple children's books about kids' imaginations running wild. It's been a long time since I've read either, but isn't a parent or grandparent telling the kids a story, and they're little kids so they believe all the stuff about giant food.

I remember loving the illustrations in each one though.

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