this post was submitted on 12 Feb 2025
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Zhang Yazhou was sitting in the passenger seat of her Tesla Model 3 when she said she heard her father’s panicked voice: The brakes don’t work! Approaching a red light, her father swerved around two cars before plowing into an SUV and a sedan and crashing into a large concrete barrier.

Stunned, Zhang gazed at the deflating airbag in front of her. She could never have imagined what was to come: Tesla sued her for defamation for complaining publicly about the car’s brakes — and won. A Chinese court ordered Zhang to pay more than $23,000 in damages and publicly apologize to the $1.1 trillion company.

Zhang is not the only one to find herself in the crosshairs of Tesla, which is led by Elon Musk, among the richest men in the world and a self-described “ free speech absolutist.” Over the last four years, Tesla has sued at least six car owners in China who had sudden vehicle malfunctions, quality complaints or accidents they claimed were caused by mechanical failures.

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[–] nieminen@lemmy.world 136 points 1 week ago (6 children)

Reason 412 why I'll never get in a Tesla.

[–] NarrativeBear@lemmy.world 62 points 1 week ago (4 children)

Consumer protection is key for any country.

Too bad the US seems to have shut down its consumer protection agencies.

[–] ltxrtquq@lemmy.ml 47 points 1 week ago (1 children)

It is not common practice for automakers — in China or elsewhere — to sue their customers. But Tesla has pioneered an aggressive legal strategy and leveraged the patronage of powerful leaders in China’s ruling Communist Party to silence critics, reap financial rewards and limit its accountability.

This was very explicitly in China. That's not to say we're doing much better though.

[–] NatakuNox@lemmy.world 12 points 1 week ago

We have the same thing here in America but instead it's a matter of law. Forced arbitrary, gag agreements, years of backlog, upfront fees and cost of getting representation, legal hurdles and delays, and laughable payouts is the same thing. Just a different flavor.

[–] ObviouslyNotBanana@lemmy.world 12 points 1 week ago (3 children)
[–] Grass@sh.itjust.works 8 points 1 week ago

coming soon...

[–] ripcord@lemmy.world 5 points 1 week ago

I don't see any reason to think they didn't realize that.

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[–] sun_is_ra@sh.itjust.works 67 points 1 week ago (13 children)

If a Chinese court would side with an American company against its own citizens it means one of two things:

  1. The girl's father was really at fault.
  2. The judicial system in China is fucked up beyond repair.
[–] shifty@leminal.space 46 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (3 children)

Japan has similar laws curbing free speech. It comes down to the east asian concept concept of 'face'.

In sociology, face refers to a class of behaviors and customs, associated with the morality, honor, and authority of an individual (or group of individuals), and their image within social groups. Face is linked to the dignity and prestige that a person enjoys in terms of their social relationships.

Japan's defamation/libel laws, similar to this Tesla case China, don't matter if what you said is true. What matters is that you disrespected the 'face' and reputation of those in power.

“(1) A person who defames another by alleging facts in public shall, regardless of whether such facts are true or false, be punished by imprisonment with or without work for not more than three (3) years or a fine of not more than 500,000 yen.”

For example, if a news agency reports on a rapist, or an individual puts up a bad review online: it doesn't matter if it is true. The 'victim' sues you for libel/defamation for speaking the truth because you didn't "give them face" and you hurt their public reputation. Expect the police to come knocking and ask you to remove your truthful reviews, or you risk jail time or civil penalties.

Edit:

The judicial system in China is fucked up beyond repair.

I suspect the judicial system here is working exactly as intended. Its the laws in Japan/China that are fucked when it comes to free speech vs protecting the 'face' of those in power.

Edit 2: I dug up some China specific info: "In Understanding and Application of the 1993 Answers, the SPC [Supreme People's Court] clarified that truth was NOT a defense to defamation. If a work insults and damages a person’s reputation, it is defamatory even if true."

I'm having trouble finding more info about the specifics of the ruling in the Tesla case (AP, CBS, English media don't provide any info), but I'd bet my dollarydoos that the ruling relates to the Chinese civil code concerning the rights of 'reputation' and 'honor' of Tesla being infringed in this instance. The AP article misses a lot of this nuance and detail, which is unfortunate. Something like The Atlantic or the Economist, Foreign Affairs (or NYT 20 years ago) with long form articles and investigative journalism from the days of old might have provided this detail, but these days BBC, CNN, et al care more about click-thru rates so we don't get the full picture.

[–] spooky2092@lemmy.blahaj.zone 39 points 1 week ago (3 children)

Japan's defamation/libel laws, similar to this Tesla case China, don't matter if what you said is true. What matters is that you disrespected the 'face' and reputation of those in power.

That is the stupidest fucking idea I have ever heard

[–] boonhet@lemm.ee 26 points 1 week ago (3 children)

In some Asian cultures, saving face is the most important thing in the world. Doesn't matter if people die, as long as nobody important loses face.

[–] spooky2092@lemmy.blahaj.zone 22 points 1 week ago (1 children)

I stand by my original statement.

[–] boonhet@lemm.ee 8 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (1 children)

I wasn't disagreeing with you, more like elaborating tbh.

I find it ridiculous too. It's also one of the reasons everyone in the software industry has bad experiences with outsourced Indian software engineers - they'll tell you it can be done, whatever 'it' is. They don't ask for guidance because that would be losing face. And then you have Indian engineers reinventing bicycles, except the wheels are square. The other reason is socioeconomic in nature and irrelevant to the discussion here.

[–] spooky2092@lemmy.blahaj.zone 3 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

Wasn't trying to sound like I disagreed with your point, more just reiterating how stupid it is.

And yeah, I've seen that a lot with Indian offshores. One guy is like that, and the other vacillates between competent/does not need direction and asking for clarification on shit he's done previously.

[–] futatorius@lemm.ee 10 points 1 week ago (1 children)

There are other countries, not in East Asia, where that's also true: for example, in Saudi Arabia and the Gulf monarchies. Reputation and respect for hierarchy is a big thing in old-school Arab culture, though in other parts of the Arab world such as Lebanon, there is a rich repertoire of invective and shit-talking that'd make a New York cabbie blush.

[–] prole@lemmy.blahaj.zone 7 points 1 week ago

It's the same kind of attitude that leads to people murdering their fucking daughter for showing her hair or some shit.

Honor culture garbage. Shit that we should have left behind centuries ago.

[–] prole@lemmy.blahaj.zone 4 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

There are a lot of cultures that do a lot of stupid shit. This is stupid shit.

[–] shifty@leminal.space 11 points 1 week ago

Agreed. I live in Japan and self censor what I say online, avoid leaving negative but truthful business reviews, because there is a very real risk of being sued for libel.

[–] Phoenicianpirate@lemm.ee 8 points 1 week ago

Yeah I found it preposterous when I heard of such laws in Japan. Also the fact that you can get YEARS in prison for such a thing is even more fucked up. The disparity between three years and 500,000 yen, which is close to 3500$US is also ridiculous.

[–] vanderbilt@lemmy.world 9 points 1 week ago (1 children)

In your second link it contradicts what you say about it not mattering if it’s true, right below the section you quoted:

“If the act relates to matters of public interest and has been conducted solely for the benefit of the public, the truth or falsity of the alleged facts shall be examined, and punishment shall not be imposed if they are proven to be true. (See Article 230-2 of the Criminal Code). Article 32 of the Criminal Code provides for the Statute of Limitations for filing a criminal action for defamation which shall prescribe in ten (10) years.”

[–] shifty@leminal.space 11 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

Yes, if you only consider the letter of the law. But the spirit of the law and the pro-business, pro-those-in-power courts rarely rule in the individual's favor. The laws weren't made for you the individual.

Don't Get Sued! Libel, Slander, and Defamation Laws in Japan

More relevant discussion here about the concept of face.

edit: Key comment here:

"The law in Japan has a cultural and legal background in much older laws about "damage to honour". Anything that damages someone's social standing, regardless of whether a specific claim is being made, is not on and is liable to be considered defamatory. Further, the lack of a specific claim makes the "truth and public interest" bar much, much harder to meet since you can't claim that your statement was truthful or in the public interest if there's no specific claim the business or person can respond to. If you're just being insulting you're one a one-way trip to a legal spanking."

I live in Japan and self censor what I say online, avoid leaving negative but truthful business reviews, because there is a very real risk of being sued for libel.

Edit 2: I dug up some China specific info: "In Understanding and Application of the 1993 Answers, the SPC [Supreme People's Court] clarified that truth was NOT a defense to defamation. If a work insults and damages a person’s reputation, it is defamatory even if true."

I'm having trouble finding more info about the specifics of the ruling in the Tesla case (AP, CBS, English media don't provide any info), but I'd bet my dollarydoos that the ruling relates to the Chinese civil code concerning the rights of 'reputation' and 'honor' of Tesla being infringed in this instance. The AP article misses a lot of this nuance and detail, which is unfortunate. Something like The Atlantic or the Economist, Foreign Affairs (or NYT 20 years ago) with long form articles and investigative journalism from the days of old might have provided this detail, but these days BBC, CNN, et al care more about click-thru rates so we don't get the full picture.

[–] futatorius@lemm.ee 6 points 1 week ago

Truth is also not a defense for defamation in the UK, though the law was changed about a decade ago to limit the potential for abuse. The UK is a popular venue to sue for defamation because it gives the plaintiffs a relatively easy ride.

[–] _cryptagion@lemmy.dbzer0.com 11 points 1 week ago

Well, the article does say that Tesla enjoys the patronage of powerful members of the CCP. Like any capitalist society, China is ruled by the elite, and the elite are friendly with Tesla.

2**

And another superpower near you will be like this in a decade

[–] ZoopZeZoop@lemmy.world 3 points 1 week ago

With Musk, I'm guessing #2.

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[–] Phoenicianpirate@lemm.ee 60 points 1 week ago (4 children)

This would be seen as too absurd even for a 90s or 2000s dystopian sci-fi movie. Tesla's advancements in automotives has always been about sending out half-baked tech and having the people test it at their expense, while other EV manufacturers did it the traditional way of actually testing the shit in proper facilities before putting it on the market...

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[–] b3an@lemmy.world 50 points 1 week ago (1 children)

I hope this eats the shit out of their Chinese market. It dropped quite a bit in other areas but like 10-11% in China. I want to see everyone dump Tesla.

I used to admire him when I was younger. Now, I would queue in line to kick him in the gonads.

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[–] blakenong@lemmings.world 50 points 1 week ago

Die in a Tesla? Believe it or not, jail.

[–] Mac@mander.xyz 38 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (4 children)

~~Fun fact: electric brakes, "brake by wire", dont have mechanical backups.
I trust the rusty hydraulic brake lines on my XJ Cherokee more than i trust Tesla to not have electrical glitches.~~

Edit: I'm not certain Teslas are using brake-by-wire and i was assuming they were based on an article i read a while ago.

I will continue shit-talking Teslas, regardless.

[–] Tinidril@midwest.social 14 points 1 week ago (5 children)

Depends on the vehicle. My Nissan Leaf (full electric) and Chevy Volt (plug in hybrid) both brake primarily with regenerative braking, but pushing the brake pedal past a certain point engages conventional brakes.

I don't think it's even possible to come to a full stop in either vehicle without engaging the physical brake. Regenerative braking doesn't do much when you get under 10 MPH or so.

[–] DarkSirrush@lemmy.ca 14 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

Regenerative braking and brake by wire are 2 very different things. One is the brake pedal engaging an energy generating device based on current resistance/momentum until certain physical conditions are met, the other is the brake pedal being attached to essentially a trigger like on a game consoles controller, that tells a computer how hard you pressed the pedal, which then thinks about it and tells the calipers to engage the amount it thinks you meant.

[–] Mac@mander.xyz 5 points 1 week ago

The Nissan Leaf is not brake-by-wire—the brake pedal is directly connected to the car's hydraulic braking system.
If your electric brake-assist failed you would still have conventional hydraulic brakes.

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[–] bob_omb_battlefield@sh.itjust.works 3 points 1 week ago (1 children)

But Tesla is not brake by wire like that. The brake pedal is connected directly to the hydraulic system, right?

[–] Mac@mander.xyz 3 points 1 week ago

I think you're right, actially. I incorrectly assumed Tesla was full brake-by-wire at this point.

[–] P00ptart@lemmy.world 3 points 1 week ago

Jk wrangler. Electrical issues out the ass, but nothing that'd be fatal.

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[–] Aralakh@lemmy.ca 18 points 1 week ago
[–] iAvicenna@lemmy.world 11 points 1 week ago

Elon should sue himself for defaming himself

[–] NotMyOldRedditName@lemmy.world 9 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (1 children)

The brakes in these things have a lot of safety features and logging added to them.

If the brake was pressed, it's easy to prove with the cars logs. It's how most of the unintended acceleration stuff goes.

If you press the brake and the accelerator at the same time the brake will win as well.

She put seals on the doors to prevent Tesla from accessing the interior saying she didnt trust Tesla, and she refused 3rd party independent testing that Tesla offered to pay for.

Nothing about this specific incident helps her credibility at all.

Also, this story is old.

[–] lmmarsano@lemmynsfw.com 14 points 1 week ago (2 children)

This would be much better with citations.

[–] EffortlessEffluvium@lemm.ee 9 points 1 week ago (4 children)

Chevy hasn’t made those for 40 years!

[–] kerrigan778@lemmy.world 4 points 1 week ago

Luckily Cessna still makes them

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[–] NotMyOldRedditName@lemmy.world 7 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (1 children)

https://insideevs.com/news/505015/tesla-response-china-protestor/

The car eventually went to a local service shop, but Tesla says Zhang sealed the doors so nobody would be able to get inside the car.

Tesla also says she refused an offer to have the car's brakes independently tested by a third party.

From Tesla Directly

On March 6, Ms. Zhang once again declared that she would reject any form of vehicle testing, and requested to return the vehicle and compensate for mental damage, medical expenses, and lost work expenses. In the Tesla store, a banner that reads “Brake Failure” was posted on the car body, and attention was drawn by means of pulling up banners and using speakers to spread Tesla’s negative comments, affecting the normal operating order of the store. Tesla staff have offered to advance the third-party inspection fees several times, but Ms. Zhang has always refused. Because of the greater impact of his “rights protection” behavior, the local police station sent out police officers to provide on-site persuasion on many occasions.”

“Since February, we have been doing our best to actively communicate with Ms. Zhang and her family. We sincerely hope that we can promote vehicle inspection as soon as possible and give a result to the friends who care about Tesla."

Edit: And obviously, this is just Tesla's statements on the matter, but I haven't ever seen anything to contradict their claims, and she lost in court and was forced to apologize. I imagine if you read Chinese you could find more sources or even court documents reiterating the seals/refusal stances.

[–] ayyy@sh.itjust.works 5 points 1 week ago (3 children)

“Independent” “third party” seems unlikely, she made the right call. No brake company wants to be on the bad side of a major auto manufacturer.

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