this post was submitted on 24 Jun 2025
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Historically, this country has sort of an allergic reaction, for good reason, for having the military being overly involved in policing. So what’s happening now is concerning. It’s sort of an escalatory measure with the 4,000 National Guard as well as 700 Marines. What makes this somewhat unique is that the governor doesn’t really want the National Guard there, or at least the California National Guard federalized in that capacity—in most instances, the governor is consenting, or even requesting, the president to assist in enforcing the law in that situation. Most famously, you saw that in 1992, when [Republican] California Gov. Pete Wilson, at some point during the LA riots, essentially requested President Bush to sort of come in and help him out.

There’s different terminology and just different ways to think. We talked about [rules of engagement] vs. what’s called “rules for use of force.” In LA [in 1992], there were Marines who were accompanying the Los Angeles Police Department for a domestic situation and LAPD officers knocked on the door and they asked the Marines to essentially “cover me,” which means one thing in a law enforcement context. Essentially, it means take your gun off of safety and be ready to take action if needed. And in the military context, “cover me” means, essentially, lay down covering fire to cover the advancement of troops.

So the Marines did what they thought was required, which was laying down covering fire into this person’s apartment in Los Angeles. I think 200 bullets were splayed. Thank God no one was hurt or injured, but it just kind of shows a disconnect between the combat versus law enforcement. I don’t think that was ever known until much later.

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[–] Sterile_Technique@lemmy.world 83 points 6 days ago (3 children)

They did sign up to defend the constitution from all domestic threats - the oath they took doesn't say "unless it's the president" so if y'all could do your fucking job please, that'd be outstanding.

[–] explodicle@sh.itjust.works 27 points 6 days ago

In hindsight, relying on an oath to prevent a prisoner's dilemma wasn't the best plan.

[–] inclementimmigrant@lemmy.world 8 points 6 days ago (2 children)
[–] Sterile_Technique@lemmy.world 5 points 6 days ago

They have to follow legal orders, but even if they're following legal orders, they can still act in accordance with their oath.

Hell, they can even continue following his legal orders posthumously.

[–] Goretantath@lemmy.world 4 points 6 days ago

They can and they should otherwise they are pansy ass shitbags who'd rather ruin everyone elses lives.

[–] RampantParanoia2365@lemmy.world 6 points 6 days ago (1 children)

They've had over 8 years to do that job, with 4 of them, their commander in chief talking about what a huge threat to democracy (freedom) he will definitely be. And here we are.

[–] Guidy@lemmy.world 87 points 6 days ago (1 children)

And yet we have zero reports of Marines or the Corps as a whole refusing to do so, meaning they’re endorsing policing LA.

I used to have a lot of respect for the federal government, to federal LE, and for Marines.

Used to.

[–] FenrirIII@lemmy.world 19 points 6 days ago (3 children)

You have a complete misunderstanding of what it means to defy lawful orders. Legal Eagle does a great job of explaining it.

[–] JacksonLamb@lemmy.world 11 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago) (1 children)

These are interesting times. Americans by and large have always insisted that they can overthrow a tyrannical government because their troops would "refuse" to uphold tyranny against their own people.

As we get closer to that situation becoming more than a hypothetical, more realistic arguments are beginning to receive prominance.

[–] Maeve@kbin.earth 2 points 5 days ago (1 children)

I think we passed "more than hypothetical," a few months ago.

[–] JacksonLamb@lemmy.world 2 points 4 days ago

I think it is going to get a lot worse, but I certainly take your point.

[–] arrow74@lemm.ee 17 points 6 days ago

There's the law and there's what's right. They don't always overlap

[–] JcbAzPx@lemmy.world 4 points 6 days ago

Lawful isn't decided until the end of the lawsuit, and just following orders isn't a valid defense.

[–] MuskyMelon@lemmy.world 58 points 6 days ago (3 children)

Marines should be required to watch A Few Good Men:

Downey: [anxiously] What did we do wrong? We did nothing wrong!

Dawson: Yeah we did. We were supposed to fight for people who couldn't fight for themselves. We were supposed to fight for Willy.

[–] Tower@lemmy.zip 13 points 6 days ago (1 children)

I imagine a lot of them have. Problem is far too many of them agree with Col. Jessep (Jack Nicholson):

Son, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lieutenant Weinberg? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Santiago and you curse the Marines. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that Santiago's death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives! You don't want the truth, because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall. You need me on that wall. We use words like "honor", "code", "loyalty". We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline! I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, and then QUESTIONS the manner in which I provide it! I would rather you just said "thank you", and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a DAMN what you think you are entitled to!

[–] Aqarius@lemmy.world 14 points 6 days ago

Yup. Unfortunately, they couldn't exactly have Nicholson end the speech with "I am a huge piece of shit and everything I just said is naked cope", so we're stuck with huge pieces of shit sharing that speech as naked cope.

"There's a reason you separate military and the police. One fights the enemies of the state, the other serves and protects the people. When the military becomes both, then the enemies of the state tend to become the people"

  • Commander William Adama
[–] Grandwolf319@sh.itjust.works 3 points 6 days ago (1 children)

You want the truth?

You can’t handle the truth!

No truth handler you!

I highly deny your truth handling abilities.

-Mayor Side show bob

[–] InternetCitizen2@lemmy.world 4 points 6 days ago

Interesting comment in that speech on why people vote republican too.

[–] Carmakazi@lemmy.world 38 points 6 days ago (3 children)

There's a decent chance they signed up to hurt brown people, though.

[–] LogicalDrivel@sopuli.xyz 12 points 6 days ago (1 children)

Some of them, maybe. A lot of people fail to realize that joining the armed forces provide a lot of opportunities that wouldn't be afforded to most of the kids joining. People growing up in poor families without an "out" can join and have higher education paid for and job training when they leave. Im not sticking up for any of the boot lickers out there, but I have to believe that the majority of our armed forces are good, normal people.

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A lot of them are brown.

[–] M0oP0o@mander.xyz 4 points 6 days ago

But not these brown people!

[–] Ultragramps@lemmy.blahaj.zone 15 points 6 days ago (2 children)

The number of corrections officers deputized is more concerning to me. The violent and newly-badged are the most often filmed violating civil rights.

[–] Ledericas@lemm.ee 2 points 5 days ago

arnt COs in prisons? kinda wierd to deputize them as LEO.

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[–] DougHolland@lemmy.world 16 points 6 days ago (5 children)

I love ya, Mother Jones, but Marines sign up to follow orders. If they're ordered to shoot me, they'll shoot me.

[–] Zenith@lemm.ee 12 points 6 days ago (1 children)

This didn’t actually sign up to follow illegal orders

[–] OutlierBlue@lemmy.ca 7 points 6 days ago (1 children)

Then why are they all still there following illegal orders?

[–] InternetCitizen2@lemmy.world 6 points 6 days ago (1 children)

It is entirely possible that they were idealistic when they joined about what they were doing and have since changed their mind. Which is why it is possible to become a conscientious objector even after enlisting. Tho most people who regret joining will do something else to get kicked out or just wait out their time.

Until the push really comes to shove we won't know if they will "defect"

[–] Maeve@kbin.earth 2 points 5 days ago

I had a buddy who earnestly tried to get kicked out of the Coast Guard, supposedly the most notorious for dishonerable discharge. Rather than court marshalling or even taking a rank, they kept promoting him until his term was up, hoping to retain him. He was really good at his job. This was some 30ish years ago and just anecdotal, but it doesn't exactly inspire my confidence that any branch has any integrity.

[–] PugJesus@lemmy.world 8 points 6 days ago

If they’re ordered to shoot me, they’ll shoot me.

It's not 1970. If the Marines decide to shoot you, it'll be for reasons slightly more complex than "They were ordered to", like "They were ordered to and believe that shooting you is in line with their values." Unfortunately, you're probably looking at a 50/50 split as to whether they're Trump bootlickers or not

Or you catch one of the Corps' pet psychopaths, that can happen too.

[–] jaggedrobotpubes@lemmy.world 4 points 6 days ago

They signed up not to follow illegal orders.

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[–] ABetterTomorrow@lemm.ee 21 points 6 days ago (1 children)

Then go home. What’s so hard about that?

[–] Ironfist79@lemmy.world 15 points 6 days ago (1 children)

Marines do what they're told. That is all.

[–] Kolanaki@pawb.social 8 points 6 days ago (2 children)

Who keeps telling them to eat crayons?!

[–] Ledericas@lemm.ee 2 points 5 days ago

crayola advertisement.

[–] SocialMediaRefugee@lemmy.world 8 points 6 days ago (1 children)

I wonder if they pulled anyone from LA or Hispanic out of those units first.

[–] null_dot@lemmy.dbzer0.com 6 points 6 days ago (1 children)

Is this a reference to Roman auxiliaries?

Not sure if I'm remembering this correctly but I think they never allowed auxiliaries to be posted in their home region because it would inevitably enable armed rebellion.

[–] PugJesus@lemmy.world 8 points 6 days ago (1 children)

Policy was mixed on that - sometimes they kept auxiliaries near their home regions (because they knew the land and because they were less prone to 'acting out' when they were posted near home), and other times, especially after mutinies or revolts, they'd post them far from their home province, like sending North African and Sarmatian (near modern Ukraine and Romania) auxiliaries to the sunny reaches of the northern borders of Britannia.

[–] null_dot@lemmy.dbzer0.com 5 points 5 days ago

Oh wow it's you, PugJesus.

I love the photos you post in the various ~historyporn communities.

And yet they decided to anyway instead of objecting to the order.

[–] SirMaple__@lemmy.ca 5 points 6 days ago

Posse Comitatus Act

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