this post was submitted on 31 Aug 2025
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[โ€“] Zachariah@lemmy.world 11 points 1 month ago

donโ€™t tell anakin

[โ€“] Zwuzelmaus@feddit.org 7 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (4 children)

Why build it so high above the ground, where it needs these strong walls of steel? Wouldn't it be cheaper to dig a hole in the ground and put the sand in there?

[โ€“] Zwiebel@feddit.org 15 points 1 month ago

Then you'd end up making strong walls to keep the surrounding soil out when the bin is empty

[โ€“] Nighed@feddit.uk 6 points 1 month ago

The ground is.... 4C or something? Would it lose more heat more easily to the solid ground, than to the air?

Its probably easier to keep it dry above ground too.

[โ€“] wizzor@sopuli.xyz 4 points 1 month ago

I got interested in this tech a while back myself (thinking I should build one myself, how hard can it be?) and I made some simulations (because who wouldn't). The thermal gradient in sand is actually quite steep, even with very high temps around the core where the resistors are, the temps fall off pretty quickly. Then when you are at a point where the surface temp is reasonable, you switch to a conventional thermal insulator. Putting it underground would cause all sorts of issues in eg. maintaining the resistors, insulation etc. so it's probably just easier to do it like this.

[โ€“] Showroom7561@lemmy.ca 3 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Maintenance? Might be easier above ground, but I know nothing of the tech, so I could be completely wrong ๐Ÿ˜ž

[โ€“] Tweak@feddit.uk 5 points 1 month ago (1 children)

More likely construction cost. Deep excavations are expensive, it's much cheaper to just install a concrete pad and land things on top of it.

[โ€“] Showroom7561@lemmy.ca 1 points 1 month ago

Construction costs are a one-time expense, though.

Is it cheaper to maintain over the course of the unit's lifespan above or below ground?

[โ€“] Mihies@programming.dev 5 points 1 month ago (4 children)

How do they keep sand from cooling down though - keeping it at up to 600C sounds like it'd lose quite a lot of energy due to temperature difference with outside? It'll be cool when they add electricity generator, otherwise this battery makes sense only in colder climates

[โ€“] Zombie@feddit.uk 7 points 1 month ago (1 children)

this battery makes sense only in colder climates

Almost as if there's a reason it's happening in Finland...

[โ€“] SaveTheTuaHawk@lemmy.ca 1 points 1 month ago

Batteries like this have been developed for home use in Northern Alberta.

[โ€“] Nighed@feddit.uk 4 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Anywhere with municipal heating really.

I can see the middle being 600C, the edges are probably cooler.

[โ€“] Mihies@programming.dev 5 points 1 month ago

Anywhere with municipal heating really.

Yes, but in milder climates one needs heating for like four or five months only. Still great to reduce emissions and whatnot, but it'd sit idle the rest of the year.

I can see the middle being 600C, the edges are probably cooler.

Probably. But it'd be still nice to have specs on that.

[โ€“] SaveTheTuaHawk@lemmy.ca 2 points 1 month ago

Its a thermal storage battery, no electricity is generated.

[โ€“] Tweak@feddit.uk -3 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Insulation and the thermal properties of sand ie it is good at storing heat. Think of it like a rock, it can store tons of heat but it takes a long time to transfer heat.

THIS IS NOT A BATTERY.

[โ€“] Mihies@programming.dev 3 points 1 month ago (1 children)

While it's not a battery it mentions that they are working at heat conversion to electricity.

[โ€“] Tweak@feddit.uk -1 points 1 month ago

Yes, but even that would not make this a battery. Energy storage =/= battery. A battery is a type of energy storage, this is another type.

[โ€“] Tweak@feddit.uk 4 points 1 month ago (2 children)

This isn't a battery, it's a Thermal Energy Storage (TMS). Just because it stores energy doesn't mean it is a battery.

The sand is heated up electrically, and energy is stored thermally. They don't even yet have a system for converting that stored thermal energy into electricity again, it's just used to heat water.

[โ€“] atomicbocks@sh.itjust.works 80 points 1 month ago (3 children)

โ€˜Batteryโ€™ is the name for any device that stores any energy. It doesnโ€™t have to be electric energy.

Seebeck generators exist.

[โ€“] Thedogdrinkscoffee@lemmy.ca 11 points 1 month ago (2 children)

Language is funny sometimes. Battery used to refer to a collection of individual electric cells, 'a battery of cells' that worked together to supply the required voltage. Old cell tech was such low voltage, that several cells were required to juice itself to practical voltages for working purposes. Here the word was a mot empruntรฉ - borrowed, from the military where battery was a term to describe a functional group of artillery that worked together for improved function. The military stole the old french term battre, 'to beat'.

Eventually "battery" evolved to mean electric power storage device regardless of cell construction. Now apparently it also includes thermal charging, storage and discharging, even when only a single cell.

Language is weird. The proper term would be accumulator, but weirdness reigns supreme.

[โ€“] Zwuzelmaus@feddit.org 2 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Battery used to refer to a collection of individual electric cells, 'a battery of cells' that worked together

IIRC Battery also used to refer to a collection of cannons

[โ€“] Thedogdrinkscoffee@lemmy.ca 5 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Uh, didn't I just say that? Lol

[โ€“] Tweak@feddit.uk -5 points 1 month ago

Eventually โ€œbatteryโ€ evolved to mean electric power storage device regardless of cell construction. Now apparently it also includes thermal charging, storage and discharging, even when only a single cell.

The thing is, it didn't evolve that way. Battery is a technical term with a defined meaning. Colloquial use by people ignorant of it cannot change the technical definition, because technical definitions are not set colloquially like most language is.

Saying it evolved that way is like saying "windmills" generate electricity. The term is wrong, and anyone doing anything meaningful in that industry knows they're not mills, they're wind turbine generators, or turbines. People might know what you mean when you use the wrong term, but that doesn't make your term in any way correct.

[โ€“] Inkstainthebat@pawb.social 2 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Last I heard Seebeck generators weren't that good/practical for large scale use; did things change?

[โ€“] wizzor@sopuli.xyz 4 points 1 month ago (1 children)

No, but they exist.

Turbines are still kings in thermoelectric generation.

[โ€“] Hotzilla@sopuli.xyz 1 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Being king as having huge losses, but unfortunately it is the best we got

[โ€“] Hotzilla@sopuli.xyz 28 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

Yes, and the basic principle of thermal batteries has been quite common here in Finland for some time.

All Finnish cities have district heating networks, so there is some heating plant that generates heat, which is distributed to homes using water as medium. It is closed system where hot water goes in, colder water comes out, which is heated back up. This energy is used to heat the home and heat the cold usage water (faucet/shower etc)

Because the network is lots of water, there is already quite a lot of energy storage in the heat grid itself, so itself works as a battery. In last five years almost all big networks have created water based thermal batteries. Those are 7-8 stories high insulated water containers. These make sense because you just start taking the already heated water from the container to the grid when ever you need.

So the tech itself is quite standard here, just the medium of using sand is new. Sand brings you bit longer storage time, but adds bit of complexity to the process.

Source: I work in a company that owns these kind of networks

[โ€“] Tweak@feddit.uk 2 points 1 month ago (1 children)

I'm not knocking the tech, I'm criticising the article for getting the terminology completely wrong. Moreso, the manufacturer has even fewer excuses.

Maybe there's a language thing here, but in English battery is not the appropriate term for this. "Battery" really refers to just a bank of some multiple of something. Originally it was naval weapons and then in electrics it was multiple cells of electrolyte. An electric battery is a specific type of energy storage, this is a different type: thermal energy storage or TES.

Hell, on the grid you don't even refer to battery electric storage as batteries that much, the common term is BESS - Battery Energy Storage System.

[โ€“] Hotzilla@sopuli.xyz 3 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

Yes, I totally agree, when talking about these thermal batteries, it should always be made clear.

When Converting heat MWh(t) to electricity MWh(e) is pretty much 2/3 loss in the process, i.e. turbine, and it must be super heated vapor meaning like 800Cยฐ.

Edit: But to be clear, they are called heat batteries, even in English.

[โ€“] Tweak@feddit.uk 1 points 4 weeks ago

They're called batteries, but they're not batteries, by definition. They're called batteries mainly for marketing, I imagine.

However on the grid in English speaking countries they will refer to them differently. Probably TES or TESS, as it goes nicely with BESS (Battery Energy Storage System), which is the common industry name for grid scale electric batteries. Furthermore, in that sector it's necessary to have clear distinction, as different types of generation have different characteristics.

Source: am HV electrical engineer.

[โ€“] blargh513@sh.itjust.works -4 points 1 month ago (3 children)

Maybe I'm dumb, but why are we still using steam turbines to turn heat energy into electricity?

There really isn't a more efficient process? Going from a heat source, transfer to water, change of state to gas, use hot gas + pressure to turn a mechanical generator/dynamo and THEN you get electricity.

There are so many failure points, maintenance points, and efficiency losses in that path.

We really have no means to convert heat energy to electricity? We do it with solar, we dont use sunlight to boil water.

What is missing here?

[โ€“] Tweak@feddit.uk 5 points 1 month ago

There are other methods, but they're far less efficient.

Solar panels convert light, not heat, into electricity. Specifically, photons (light) excite electrons in the solar cell, and these excited electrons then move through the solar cell and form a current.

This isn't really being used to generate electricity. They're developing a generator from it, but currently it's used for purely thermal energy transfer. Basically, the towns have big pipes running through them for communal heating, and these pipes are heated by this thermal energy storage.

I imagine they're only talking about electricity generation as an extra revenue stream for their customers who buy these, rather than it being a good solution for storing and generating electricity. The 90% efficiency is much better than combustion generators, but far worse than true electric batteries.

[โ€“] SaveTheTuaHawk@lemmy.ca 5 points 1 month ago

It is incredibly efficient at huge scale.

[โ€“] Hotzilla@sopuli.xyz 3 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (2 children)

Large scale three phase energy generation is always something rotating in sync with the grid. Easiest way to do that is to spin turbine+generator.

All nuclear, coal, biomass power plants just heat water to 300-800ยฐC and push it through turbine.

The thing is that it is really quite robust, and there isn't any other good solutions to it. They do have quite a lot of loss, but the cooled water after process (still over 100ยฐC) can be used in other industries or district heating improving the efficiency.

Hydropower just spin the turbine with water flow. Wind directly spins the turbine, which is good for efficiency. Solar panels are still quite inefficient, but because they just use space, they make lot of sense even with poorer efficiency.

[โ€“] antipiratgruppen@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 3 days ago (1 children)

the cooled water after process (still over 100ยฐC)

Steam, right? Describing steam as cooled water seems somewhat odd to me, but it is indeed still water its gaseous form. So, cooled steam of water?

[โ€“] Hotzilla@sopuli.xyz 2 points 3 days ago (1 children)

Those are pressured systems, the water is kept in high pressure, which means it is liquid water. When it goes through turbine it it steam, usually superheated.

In industrial settings you can get water to 350ยฐC in liquid form, it just about the pressure.

Even the city wide district heating networks water is kept at 3 bar, which can keep the water at liquid for 133ยฐC in the winter time.

Oh, I didn't think of that. Thanks for the explanation.

[โ€“] Tweak@feddit.uk 1 points 5 days ago

Solar panels are still quite inefficient, but because they just use space, they make lot of sense even with poorer efficiency.

You can't really compare those efficiencies with each other, between different technologies.

With fuel, you're talking about how much energy per kg.

With wind, you're talking about how much energy per m/s wind.

With solar, you're talking about how much energy over the whole solar spectrum that gets through the atmosphere. However, a single junction p-n diode made of silicon is only meant to work at a specific wavelength, and will only get energy from around this wavelength, and as such could only ever get a maximum theoretical efficiency of ~36% of the total solar spectrum of light wavelengths. In the lab I think some have achieved ~33%.

You can get higher efficiency solar cells, but you have to use novel materials and have multiple layers of different p-n junctions. Short wavelengths first, these materials are transparent to longer wavelengths, which are absorbed by lower layers. With a theoretical infinitely layered solar cell you could achieve ~88% of the solar spectrum energy. In reality it's really hard to make a semiconductor diodes that fit certain wavelengths, leaving gaps in the spectrum even with multiple diode layers.

~30% for solar cells sounds ridiculously low compared to like, maybe, 70% for fuels. But it's a completely different measurement. Grid scale battery systems are mayb 98-99% - but that's just electrical energy in and electrical energy out over a short time.

There is no common denominator, but the solar energy is free.