this post was submitted on 07 Mar 2025
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[–] Aceticon@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 8 hours ago (1 children)

First your arguments are either Strawmen (the Racism thing, which is not in my original post and is but an element of a far broader Far Right point I was making) or Appeal To Absurd fallacies (they don't have a "monopoly on Racism" hence it's ok, an argument so absurd that Russia would qualify for EU membership by that logic, and "others too act in their own self interest" hence Britain is ok, again an absurd point which means any country no matter how bad their behavior in the EU is fine because other countries also act in their own self interest, so for example Hungary is just fine in the EU).

By artificially flattening the universe to only to states, totally black or totally white, in that "argumentative" structure of yours, you've reduced it all to "nobody is perfect hence Britain is fine in the EU", which as I said is such a ridiculous reductio ad absurdum that your "argument" would justify bloody North Korea or Nazi Germany in the EU since, "everybody is a bit Racist and every nation acts in their own self interest".

The problem with Britain is not one of "not being perfect" (no nation is, hence why that "argument" of yours is seriously ridiculous), it's one of "given the imperfections that everybody has, how bad are they by comparison?"

Having seen the Leave campaign up close and personal and the arguments of Brexiters before and after the vote, they have a very large fraction of their population (over 1/3, more that the far right vote in all the countries you mentioned earlier) who positively relished the idea of damaging the EU. I don't just mean, they wanted to merely leave, they actually wanted the rest to suffer. That's a reflection of a broader malaise of that country, namely extreme nationalism with huge delusions of grandeur to the point of hate for the other (and this was back a decade ago already), which has been fed over the years by maybe the most disfunctional Press in Europe and by a Political class which is very much to the Right of most of Europe, none of which has changed since the Referendum.

Leave Referendum Britain, with the massive numbers of people who detest the rest of the EU, with such an extremely selfish take on the EU that when they left they had much more exceptions than everybody else and who look to America rather than to their European partners as inspiration, is still there alive and kicking, it's just that in the meanwhile a proportion of the Leavers have pragmatically concluded it's more beneficial for them personally that Britain is an EU member - not a change of heart but a revaluation of the "business argument" for Britain in the EU.

Absolutely, the EU itself isn't perfect and the countries in it are all imperfect in many ways (nothing is perfect), yet when one of the most selfish, ultra-neoliberal (very much US-style) and borderline Fascist countries chooses to leave, that's a win for the rest of the EU (as for Britain then, so it would be for Hungary now) because the leaving of one of the least cooperative and more far right members makes the group as a whole better, and for them return should only happen when they would make the group better, not worse - for Britain that's when they've sufficiently evolved socially and politically beyond the stage they're in now that them as an EU member is a net positive for the EU as a whole, not just good for Britain themselves.

Until then, it's fine if we all cooperate, what we can't have is present day Britain on the inside having votes and vetos on things that impact the lives of the other 470 million people in the EU and blackmailing the rest with threats of having a tantrum all over again, to obtain special conditions for themselves which nobody else has just like they were doing before and which ultimately ended in the Referendum and them leaving.

[–] mannycalavera@feddit.uk 1 points 21 minutes ago

😉 I'm not sure you've understood, at all, my point. But that's ok. You seem extremely hurt for some reason by the UK, that's ok I'm sorry this happened to you. All I'm trying to explain is that the qualities you dislike in the UK are present all over the EU, and thus your zeal to keep the UK out makes little to no sense.

You have to understand why the EU (and EEC before) was created and formed to understand why, hopefully in the future, the UK will rejoin - despite your objections and hesitation.

Anyways, I wish you a pleasant week. I have work to return to.