this post was submitted on 22 Feb 2025
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I'm trying to figure out a ruling for something one of my players wants to do. They're invisible, but they took a couple of seemingly non-attack actions that my gut says should break inviz.

Specifically, they dumped out a flask of oil, and then used a tinderbox to light it on fire. Using a tinderbox isn't an attack, nor is emptying a flask, although they are actions , and the result of lighting something on fire both seems like an attack and something that would dispell inviz.

I know that as DM I can rule it however I want, but I'm fairly inexperienced and I don't wanna go nerfing one of my players tools just because it feels yucky to me personally without understanding the implications.

Is this an attack or is there another justification for breaking inviz that is there some RAW clause I didn't see? Or should this be allowed?

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[–] perfectduck@lemmy.world 1 points 26 minutes ago

Similarly inexperienced opinion here, but I'd also allow it. Agree with the others that pouring the oil would be potentially visible, but definitely after the fire is lit the smoke would make the players visible when they move. Kind of like how the smoke allows you to see the tripwire lasers.

Rule of cool first and creative thinking is what makes ttrpgs great. However, you're the DM and the tone of the game is ultimately up to you.

Sounds like your players are thinking outside the box, which in my experience is nothing but a recipe for fun (and likely headaches for your carefully laid plans). Good luck.

[–] CuriousRefugee@lemmy.ml 19 points 8 hours ago (1 children)

I would probably not rule this as an attack. Lighting a creature on fire? Sure. But lighting oil, which happens to catch a creature on fire? Nah. IMO, aggressive actions aren't attacks unless they make contact with or directly (not indirectly) affect an enemy. At least, that's how I'd rule.

That being said, keep in mind that invisible creatures aren't undetectable , just unseen. Someone dumps out a flask of oil? As soon as that oil leaves the flask (so it's not being worn or carried), it's visible, and leaving a trail for any enemy to follow. Attacks against targets you can't see are made with disadvantage, but can still be made. A bunch of goblins swinging axes at the air are eventually gonna hit something. Are you having invisible characters make stealth checks? They'd get advantage, but if they make noise (e.g., strike a tinderbox), every enemy in the area should get a chance to roll a Perception check against Stealth, not just use passive Perception.

All that being said, if your players come up with a cool idea, roll with it. I actually really like the idea of an invisible PC lighting a fire on their enemies. But (most) enemies aren't dumb, and they're not going to sit around doing nothing if a clumsy, noisy invisible thing dumps out oil all around them and then lights it on fire. Plus, sometimes a half-executed idea is more fun than a perfectly-executed one (oh shit, remember when we lit the thieves den on fire but then had to run away because they were so furious and nearly killed Gary?!?)

Don't be afraid to change or define the rules as necessary. It's your game. If every single time they infiltrate, they're turning invisible and setting fire, then say, "it's going to be an attack from now on, and you'll lose invisibility." FORCE them to be creative. Lastly, let the players know that they can always ask. A PC casting invisibility would know if an action is going to cancel it. So they can check with you in the moment, you make a ruling, and then they can decide what to do. If later you decide you were wrong, tell them that next time it'll be different.

Hope that helps!

[–] PeriodicallyPedantic@lemmy.ca 2 points 3 hours ago

I don't wanna rain on my players parade for having a clever idea, but this to me seems like getting away on a technicality - like that scene in the Simpsons when Bart and Lisa are kicking and punching the air with their eyes closed and if the other just happens to get in their way then it's the other's fault lol.

Through some clever rules lawyering, this little flying familiar is becoming dangerously OP lol. In another encounter it basically two-shotted a fire giant.

I might consider lighting the oil with tinder as an attack against an object (oil) for the purposes of this spell.

[–] explodicle@sh.itjust.works 8 points 8 hours ago (1 children)

I would allow it. The damage is terrible compared to actual attacks, the enemies can figure it out, and it's slow.

Let them have the win until it's underpowered in a few levels. It's fun to figure out a cool combo, and you can just make the game harder.

[–] PeriodicallyPedantic@lemmy.ca 1 points 3 hours ago

It wasn't actually attacking an enemy, it was setting their weapon rack on fire so that they couldn't get to their ranged weapons.

Very clever, I like it!

But this familiar is becoming OP through rules lawyering. I don't wanna rain on my player's parade, but I'm not an experienced DM and it's becoming difficult to make encounters that can't just be circumvented by this damn familiar lol.

[–] catloaf@lemm.ee 8 points 8 hours ago* (last edited 7 hours ago)

Strictly speaking, this is an item interaction, not an attack action. Clearly they're using it as an attack, and framing it as an item interaction to avoid losing invisibility.

I don't know the rules of invisibility off the top of my head, but I might do something like require a stealth check to maintain the benefits, or a perception or dex check from the other guy to notice it/avoid it hitting him. I don't think I'd actually end the entire spell, that has always seemed excessive to me.

[–] edgemaster72@lemmy.world 7 points 8 hours ago (2 children)

I'm going by 2014 rules, but what constitutes an attack is actually pretty strict. Basically, there must be an attack roll of some kind, or the rules for that action must specifically describe it as an attack, for it to actually be an attack.

https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/71245/what-counts-as-an-attack

[–] PeriodicallyPedantic@lemmy.ca 2 points 3 hours ago

Interesting!

Outside of combat, when a character is diligently working towards a thing that they're able to do, I wouldn't typically expect them to roll for it beyond adding flavor of how long it takes them.
In that light I could see using the tinderbox as an attack but the player doesn't usually need to roll it. But that's a stretch, I admit.

I'm gonna have to think on this a bit more. I'm shocked that burning hands or acid splash isn't considered an attack.

[–] Blue_Morpho@lemmy.world 1 points 7 hours ago (1 children)

I'm not sure that helps because it doesn't answer the question of indirect damage. Does a trap going off which requires a roll count as an attack?

[–] edgemaster72@lemmy.world 6 points 6 hours ago

Only if the roll made is an attack roll. As OP says, pouring out a flask doesn't require an attack, nor does lighting something with a tinderbox. In fact neither of these should require any roll at all.

Personally I would allow pouring out oil to not break invis, but depending on the type of enemy, they might get perception checks to see if they can correlate oil pouring to mean someone must be pouring it for the players location. Although if they would throw the oil at something it would be like making a throwing attack with an improvised weapon.

Using the tinderbox I'd rule as attacking the oil in order to cause fire.

I feel like those moves equate to item interaction for pouring the oil right where they are, but deliberately lighting something on fire with a tool requires both more focus, intent and deliberate action.