this post was submitted on 14 May 2025
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103
Criminalising Online Sex Work: β€žThis law will have international implications far beyond Swedenβ€œ (netzpolitik.org)
submitted 9 hours ago by federalreverse@feddit.org to c/europe@feddit.org
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cross-posted from: https://feddit.org/post/12433603

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[–] x00z@lemmy.world 22 points 7 hours ago* (last edited 7 hours ago) (2 children)

Meanwhile in Belgium: Belgium's sex workers get maternity leave and pensions under world-first law

Under a new law in Belgium - the first of its kind in the world - [...] Sex workers will be entitled to official employment contracts, health insurance, pensions, maternity leave and sick days. Essentially, it will be treated like any other job.

Sex work was decriminalised in Belgium in 2022 and is legal in several countries including Germany, Greece, the Netherlands and Turkey.

I hate the fact that there's sexually frustrated people who are trying to create laws regarding sexuality.

[–] systemglitch@lemmy.world 4 points 5 hours ago (1 children)

What you hate is organized religion. Hate the source, not the symptom of that infection.

[–] x00z@lemmy.world 1 points 48 minutes ago

Very correct, In most cases at least.

I just want to make sure nobody gives them a pass because of their religion, which has no place in politics anyways.

[–] Thedogdrinkscoffee@lemmy.ca 8 points 7 hours ago (1 children)

"I'm not happy until you're not happy."

[–] thanksforallthefish@literature.cafe 11 points 6 hours ago

"Puritanism Is the Haunting Fear That Someone, Somewhere, May Be Happy"

https://quoteinvestigator.com/2020/06/25/puritanism/

[–] null_dot@lemmy.dbzer0.com 43 points 9 hours ago (6 children)

What are the purported benefits of this law?

Are they just assuming that paid online sex work is bad and should be stopped?

Who fucking cares what consenting adults do in private in separate locations via the magic of the interweb.

[–] ObviouslyNotBanana@lemmy.world 26 points 8 hours ago* (last edited 7 hours ago) (2 children)

As a Swede who is unsure that this law will do what it is intended to do, here is what it is actually intended to do and the context in which it is written:

In Sweden it is legal for an individual to sell sex to another individual. Buying sex however, is illegal. This is intended to protect the one selling sex from the buyer. The thought is that there's no valid reason to criminalise the actions of a person who is already in a pretty exposed situation. This law has been in effect for 26 years.

The intention of this proposed law is to make it illegal for a buyer to order specific porn from a seller, as in requesting that the seller produces a specific thing for the buyer. Which, while "who fucking cares what consenting adults do" is a valid position, is in line with current legal thinking. The intention isn't to criminalise selling porn, even when it's been made to order for a buyer. It is to protect those in an exposed situation.

I can't say if that's how it will work out however. I've heard worries that it will have other consequences.

edit: added a reference to current law.
edit2: 26, not 36.

[–] null_dot@lemmy.dbzer0.com 13 points 8 hours ago (1 children)

The article does cover this, but I still don't really understand the purported benefit of discouraging sex work. Is it just a moral thing?

[–] ObviouslyNotBanana@lemmy.world 4 points 8 hours ago* (last edited 8 hours ago) (1 children)

I added some more context, but the sex work itself isn't discouraged by the law (though it certainly isn't encouraged either - there are certain caveats to the situation). Buying sex is. And that's what they want this law to do as well.

Do bear in mind that I'm not commenting on whether or not this is the correct way to construct the laws around sex work. I am, rather, conveying what the essence of intent is in the current legal framework.

[–] null_dot@lemmy.dbzer0.com 10 points 8 hours ago (2 children)

I get it. I understand that that the buyer is the criminal and that the provider is not. The article explains that.

What it doesn't explain is why there can't be a regulated market for digital adult services.

[–] lime@feddit.nu 6 points 8 hours ago (1 children)

the rationale behind the original law is that sex work is overwhelmingly done by people who are being coerced and/or trafficked, and the reasoning behind this new law is that trafficking is also a big problem online. sanctioning a market, the argument goes, would invite rent-seeking traffickers like andrew tate.

[–] null_dot@lemmy.dbzer0.com 8 points 6 hours ago (1 children)

That answers my question i guess.

Regulation seems like a better answer to me. A licensing system that ensures workers have agency and access to support to avoid pimps and so on.

[–] lime@feddit.nu 5 points 4 hours ago

that's if you want to acknowledge that human beings do this of their own free will, which sweden does not. our drug policy is the same.

[–] ObviouslyNotBanana@lemmy.world 2 points 8 hours ago* (last edited 7 hours ago) (1 children)

Sure. That's a valid question.

Since I'm trying to be pretty neutral, I can only say that such a thing wouldn't be in the spirit of current legal thinking on the subject.

If I allow myself to deviate a little, I do see the problem. It does restric a sex workers' ability to sell their service(s) and that is of course a problem for them. I'm personally leaning more towards a well regulated legal market, but I also understand that such a market is difficult to control and I ~~am sympathetic to~~ understand the legal thinking that lead to this current framework because of that.

There are things, other than blanket legalization of buying sexual services, that could be done to help increase the status of sex work which probably should be done in my opinion. Like making it easy for the sex worker, who isn't doing anything illegal, to file for taxes and get the benefits of others who run their own business. I don't think those issues exist to intentionally make things difficult. I think they exist because of negligence. They could be fixed, but the thinking seems to be that it is not important.

edit: clarified the intention of a sentence.

[–] thanksforallthefish@literature.cafe 3 points 7 hours ago (1 children)

I am sympathetic to the legal thinking that lead to this current framework because of that.

As someone who has watched Swedes push their model internationally with evangelical fervour for decades and as a consequence dug into its antecedents I'd suggest you have cause and effect reversed.

The Swedish model starts with the premise that sex work is a bad thing, and moves onto how it can be prevented in a way that not only doesn't give agency to sex workers, it actively removes and denies that they have agency. Paternalistic welfare activity has been de rigeur in the Swedish state since WW2 and this is just one facet of it.

I'm OK with Swedes running their state however they like, but when they team up with American evangelical money and run around trying to push their model onto other countries with active campaigns I'm less ok. Particularly the pseudo science that is used to justify it.

[–] ObviouslyNotBanana@lemmy.world 3 points 7 hours ago* (last edited 7 hours ago) (1 children)

Sorry, maybe I was being unclear (while I'm quite good at English, I do realise that "being sympathetic" has a different meaning than I intended).

I do not necessarily think it is the correct model. There are a lot of valid opinions on how to do it, and I do lean more towards well regulated legalisation. But I understand the thinking that made the system what it is. I see the points that favour it. That said, I also see the points that disfavour the current law.

I do think it's healthy to have a discussion about it, and I think Sweden does need to have that discussion. We need to have a discussion about weed too, for example.

[–] thanksforallthefish@literature.cafe 3 points 7 hours ago (1 children)

It's OK, I understood that you were trying to explain it rather than justify it.

However the part I'm pushing back on is how you are characterising the thinking this new law, and the existing Swedish sex work laws are based on. The starting premise needs to go one further step back into the basis of the original Swedish model laws.

You say that "I understand the thinking that made the system what it is" (above) and "I can only say that such a thing wouldn't be in the spirit of current legal thinking on the subject." (2 posts up where "thing" is referencing "why there can't be a regulated market for digital adult services.")

But you fail to state that **the initial premise that the system is based on is that the Swedish state does not consider it possible for an adult to give consent to sex work. **

It's the short answer to "why can't there be a regulated market" - the answer is that in the view of Swedish model proponents sex-work cannot be consented to and is therefore treated in the same light as rape/abuse.

This is a position that the proponents of the Swedish model keep ducking and weaving to avoid admitting. The pseudo science it built its claims on have not held up to scrutiny.

The premise is flawed, thus the laws built on a flawed premise may be internally consisten, but that doesn't make them rational.

Unless of course we don't believe in bodily autonomy in which case then sure, the state had better start criminalising unprotected sex, skiing, hang gliding, bungee jumping, and anything else that might harm us.

[–] ObviouslyNotBanana@lemmy.world 4 points 6 hours ago* (last edited 6 hours ago)

Again, I understand what you're saying. I am talking about stated intention as far as the discussion goes. That people cannot consent in a situation where money changes hands can absolutely be interpreted as part of the foundation but my personal thought on that is more that it is due to negligence.

In effect, it is irrelevant to the proponents of this model whether or not consent can be given.

Does that make it better? No, not at all, and I definitely think that those who consider the legal construction to be sound should have to discuss that point as well.

[–] rottingleaf@lemmy.world 9 points 8 hours ago (1 children)

In Sweden it is legal for an individual to sell sex to another individual. Buying sex however, is illegal.

Yes, and in Russia we have a saying "simplicity is worse than theft". It's about the simplicity of thinking this works to discourage buying without encouraging to sell covertly\illegally\unofficially\you get the idea.

The seller and the buyer are connected with their common interest in a deal. So what affects the legality of one of the sides, also affects that of the other. Because the former will be interested in avoiding legal means to protect themselves in everything connected to that deal, to keep their source of income or social ties over it or whatever.

[–] ObviouslyNotBanana@lemmy.world 1 points 8 hours ago* (last edited 8 hours ago) (1 children)

It is more about the fact that when the buyer is committing a criminal act, they can be prosecuted for that criminal act.

It also is assumed that the sex worker will not be interested in helping. It is on the judicial system to find the criminals and prosecute them.

The sex worker is doing something entirely legal. It's up to the system to protect their right to do that while also protecting them from predation. That's the thought, anyway.

[–] thanksforallthefish@literature.cafe 7 points 7 hours ago (1 children)

The sex worker is doing something entirely legal. It's up to the system to protect their right to do that while also protecting them from predation. That's the thought, anyway.

Respectfully no it's not.

The thought is to ensure that culpability sits with the buyer and not the seller. By criminalising the buyer the thinking is that the poor victim forced into sex work should not receive any punishment. Which is fine if the person was forced into it/trafficked but it's not OK if the person chose to do it of their own free will.

The Swedish model is at its heart paternalistic - it denies people the right to choose to do sex work because the state doesn't believe a person is capable of making that choice, they can only be coerced into it.

[–] ObviouslyNotBanana@lemmy.world 5 points 7 hours ago* (last edited 7 hours ago) (1 children)

I have had to clarify this a couple of times now in this thread but what I wrote is not my personal stance. It is what the stated intention is. That doesn't make it right or effective.

All my my comment was intended to do, was to add context to a discussion about a society that I live in. I did not intend to put my personal stamp of approval on the consequences of that societal context.

I do personally believe that, assuming the stated intention is true, the law hasn't done what was meant to be achieved perfectly and that it should be discussed whether there is something that can be done to better the situation.

We have a few moralistic laws in Sweden that at the very least need more debate. The laws around sex work are definitely on that list imo.

[–] thanksforallthefish@literature.cafe 1 points 6 hours ago (1 children)

I have had to clarify this a couple of times now in this thread but what I wrote is not my personal stance. It is what the stated intention is. That doesn't make it right or effective.

As per my other reply, that was understood.

I do personally believe that, assuming the stated intention is true, the law hasn't done what was meant to be achieved perfectly and that it should be discussed whether there is something that can be done to better the situation.

Again, as per other (long) reply, the big problem is the "intention" you are portraying is not actually consistent with both the speeches made when the original laws were passed and any reasonable reading of the law.

The intention is to abolish sex work because in the minds of the framers it is not possible for an adult to consent to it.

I'm not upset with you for trying to improve understanding. I'd however implore you to consider how taking agency away from people, telling them they are not capable of making a decision about themselves and their body is morally and ethically flawed.

The justification about it stopping trafficking has not held up to analysis, criminals continue to do crime. It's guys like the one in the article and other men & women who pay the price for someone to have a righteous middle class glow.

Strong social welfare systems (like Sweden has) help prevent people doing it from desperation - so buttress those if there's a shortcoming. Strong regulation of migration prevents trafficking before we even get to regulating the industry. Those are things that peer reviewed papers have shown to work.

[–] ObviouslyNotBanana@lemmy.world 4 points 6 hours ago (1 children)

You do keep saying that you understand but you also implore me to consider how taking agency away from people, telling them they are not capable of making a decision about themselves and their body is morally and ethically flawed.

Something which I've never said that I personally haven't. So I think we're closer in personal belief on the issue than we maybe assume we are.

[–] MudMan@fedia.io 11 points 9 hours ago

Hey, you thought TERFs were a weird wedge between European and US feminists when they first got a foothold in the UK?

I have terrible news about how that process has been running again regarding sex work and surrogate pregnancy.

Surrogate pregnancy is less controversial because there the traditional US stance is in the minority and bans have been expanding relatively unopposed. Sex work, though? There are outright porn bans being advocated in left-leaning circles all over Europe. The fact that they've been calling themselves "sex work abolitionists" should be sobering.

Expect the global right to try to deploy the same strategy on this issue going forward. There are already similar proposals in the US and they are very aware that they can recruit some segment of nominally left-wing feminist activists and voters with these issues, just like they did with transphobic policies.

[–] NoForwardslashS@sopuli.xyz 6 points 8 hours ago (1 children)

Despite Sweden's great international PR, they have extremely harsh drug laws and wildly restrictive alcohol laws. They very much like to police what consenting adults do in private.

[–] Saleh@feddit.org 4 points 7 hours ago

While exporting one of the largest Vodka brands in the world (Absolut)

[–] rottingleaf@lemmy.world 5 points 8 hours ago

People who could do it with safe payments, smaller risk of STIs or getting stabbed 42 times with a blunt knife, are now going to walk the streets.

That's the benefit, misery helps power. Misery means vulnerability to be used as a human tool of power.

Some people have that delusion that the EU is progressing, not regressing, as a whole. Or that it's in the early stages of rot, while it's not.

Laws and politicians should be cleaned from time to time and made anew, similar to shit in the latrine.

[–] talkingpumpkin@lemmy.world 3 points 7 hours ago* (last edited 7 hours ago) (1 children)

IDK where this fixation in regulating other people's sexual life comes from, I assume it's from the Middle-east religions?

When asked the question "who is the victim in this supposed crime?" they will tell you it's the exploited women (is there male prostitution? IDK), but those are supposed victims (even if 99.99% of prostitutes were forced into it, you'd still have to prove exploitation in each specific case - that's how justice works in every other matter except this one). They won't be able to explain (if not with, often made-up, statistical arguments) why they don't treat women (and men) that are exploited in different businesses the same way (think, migrants forced to work in slavelike conditions in agriculture).

The sad truth is, those moralists are just more interested in dictating other people's sexual behaviour than they are interested in human rights.

It's worth mentioning that, besides the various semi-bans on prostitution (which do irritate me, but whom - in all honesty - I can live with), this unhealthy sexual fixation of our societies is what gifts us the marginalization (when it's not persecution) of LGBT people.

[–] Saleh@feddit.org -1 points 7 hours ago (1 children)

I assume it’s from the Middle-east religions?

Your assumption is both false and seems racist. How the heck do you get the idea that Swedish sexual morals would be defined by people thousands of kilometres away?

Sweden has a long lasting history of being more strict around alocohol, drugs and prostitution. Sexual morals in Europe are predominantly shaped by the dominant christian church, be it catholic or protestant. Both the catholic and protestants are their own makings of Europe and during the crusades European Christians often slaughtered orthodox Christian.

Muslim countries have been more progressive on issues such as abortions and reproductive healthcare and partly seen a regression since the christian colonizers. Prostitution has always been illegal under Muslim law, but it also has been illegal in Christian Europe and legality is more the exception than the rule even today. Again the idea that this would somehow be the "fault" of "Middle-east religions" is absurd. This is some 1500 years "home made" European stances.

[–] thanksforallthefish@literature.cafe 4 points 6 hours ago

I assume it’s from the Middle-east religions?

How the heck do you get the idea that Swedish sexual morals would be defined by people thousands of kilometres away?

I think that's a reference to the 3 Abrahamic religions all of which originated in the Middle East - and of those Christianity most certainly is shaping the morals of Sweden (or at the least certainly has in the past)

(Judaism, Christianity and Islam being the "big 3 abrahamic" - Zoroastrianism & Bahai aren't really in the same category worldwide and aren't Abrahamic as far as I am aware)

[–] TrendigOsthyvel@lemmy.world 1 points 9 hours ago (1 children)

I agree, but it's hard to rule out trafficking for an example.

[–] null_dot@lemmy.dbzer0.com 6 points 8 hours ago (1 children)

Are you saying the girls producing these services are being exploited ?

Do laws like this really address that? Seems unlikely to me.

Suppose a third of digital adult services are exploitative. I suspect that this type of law curtails almost all of the non-exploitative providers but the exploitative ones carry on. It might even make the act of exploitation more profitable.

[–] lime@feddit.nu 1 points 8 hours ago* (last edited 8 hours ago)

they claim to address that, yes.

[–] ZILtoid1991@lemmy.world 14 points 8 hours ago (1 children)

If I regret working in a very dangerous workplace (such as being a miner), then can I lobby on banning that? Or "selling your body" only applies if genitals are involved?

[–] Successful_Try543@feddit.org 7 points 8 hours ago* (last edited 8 hours ago) (1 children)

No, as you've already pointed out: It's only "selling your body" when genitals are involved.
For working as a miner, brick layer, cleaner or berry picker, the usual labour protection and anti-trafficking laws must suffice.

[–] federalreverse@feddit.org 1 points 7 hours ago* (last edited 7 hours ago)

I have never worked in either field but I don't think these are comparable in terms psychologic harm they usually do. (Which is an argument for more mental and legal assistance for sex workers rather than for bans.)

[–] Lembot_0002@lemm.ee 17 points 9 hours ago (4 children)

I'm an engineer so I don't know much about morals, but I have a very simple rule to distinguish good from bad: I ask who is harmed because of the process. If someone objectively does -- the process is bad. All is good otherwise.

[–] JayDee@lemmy.sdf.org 6 points 9 hours ago

You're getting to the right idea, computer boy!

[–] MudMan@fedia.io 4 points 9 hours ago (1 children)

Bit simplistic, that.

Hey, my approach to engineering is "if machine moves, machine works", and I'm sure there isn't any more nuance than that, so... call it a tie?

The problem with "harm" is it's hard to measure or qualify. What is "objectively less harm" in situations where you're trying to regulate the use of narcotics or, indeed, sex work. Is it more harmful for it to be illegal because there's some harm associated with it or is it more harmful to criminalize it? And if you don't criminalize it but harm does come to pass how do you mitigate that?

What do you do when two people identify harm in opposite actions? How do you measure which harm is more harmful if you can't have a zero harm outcome? What is the unit of harm?

[–] jenesaisquoi@feddit.org 3 points 8 hours ago (2 children)

The measure of harm is as follows: if any persons involved in the process feel that there is harm in it, however slight, then there is harm.

I'd say that'd work well

[–] MudMan@fedia.io 3 points 7 hours ago (1 children)

That's not a measure.

If two people involved in a process feel that the other is harming them, then you need to weigh one harm against another. Similarly, if both an action and a lack of action cause harm you need to know what causes most harm.

I mean, if we stop beating around the bush and cut the socratic bullshit, the point is this: in all political action there are multiple interests that often, if not always, have conflicting positions and perceive the results of that action differently. The idea of the entire system is that a representative govenrment controlled by checks and balances will broadly align their choices with the interest of the general public, or at least do so more consistently than the available alternatives.

You can't measure harm objectively. That's not a thing. The world isn't made of discrete actions where each either harms or doesn't harm. It's a web of interconnected interpretations, preferences, interests and benefits. Some are physical, others economic or moral. There isn't an equivalence between them and there isn't an objectively optimal solution. That's the entire point of politics in the first place.

[–] jenesaisquoi@feddit.org 2 points 7 hours ago (1 children)

We're not looking for a generalised measure of harm - just one good enough for safe sex work. For which my suggestion works, as it is basically equivalent to consent.

[–] MudMan@fedia.io 0 points 7 hours ago

I disagree. We are looking for a generalised measure of harm because... well, because that's what all politics does, but also because we're measuring very different interests against each other.

There are people who will argue that while individual choices in sex work are neutral the system in general is patriarchal and harms primarily women with few resources or in vulnerable positions, so right from the jump you need to decide how many babies you're going to throw with the human trafficking bathwater. Others will argue that sex work carries a moral harm, which I disagree with, but we're not basing political choices on what I, personally, find acceptable (unfortunately, because I'm good at this).

There are the interests of online platforms, the interests of pornography producers (both mostly financial), the interests of people working in the industry, the interests of consumers of porn and other sex work... There are aguments about the impact of the sex work industry on sex education as online distribution weakens age limits, so by that channel you now also have to weigh online privacy against the ability to distribute properly targeted adult-only content.

It's a complete mess of interconnected parameteres. Which is exactly why it's a prime vector for conservative elements trying to attack it for ideological reasons to overlap with left-leaning feminists objecting to it for other reasons.

And if you come at it from an online bro "here's an easy solution to a complex problem" attitude you're almost certainly making the whole thing worse, so I'd caution against it.

[–] Saleh@feddit.org 2 points 6 hours ago

There is plenty of people ignorant or in denial about harming themselves or being harmed. That is usually the stage where drug addicts are at before they realize their addiction as such.

Also it is very much possible to groom people who are legally of age into things where they think they are making the decision by themselves and from their own will, but actually they are manipulated and subjected to harm.

On the flip side there is also many situations where people claim to be harmed but actually are not and there is situations were people from the outside think to see harm or lack of harm and it not being true to the reality of the person affected.

It is difficult to navigate and there is no simple answers or measures to it.

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[–] boreengreen@lemm.ee 1 points 5 hours ago* (last edited 5 hours ago)

Not sure I disagree with this proposal. This is wierd to me though. You can buy pre-recorded stuff. But not live stuff. Oh well.

So holding a poll of what to record and then selling that would be fine, I guess.

[–] Commiunism@beehaw.org 0 points 8 hours ago (1 children)

Gonna have an unpopular take here, but pornography and sex work under our current system shouldn't be celebrated as a "bastion of freedom", given how it's selling access to one's body and sexuality as a product. Even if they agree to it consensually, the choice happens in a world where money decides what people can or can't do, if one is going to survive or not. This makes the concept of "real consent" complicated, because the need of money, much like the need of food or essential goods can force people into doings they wouldn't freely choose if survival wasn't on the line.

Given this, one could definitely consider it commodified rape - it's not necessarily violent like forced rape, but it's still shaped by money, power, and pressure in a system where people's bodies get turned into things to be bought.

The law does suck ass and shouldn't be supported though, the issue stems with a system where our survival depends on money (with selling your body being a way to get by) and not individual morals. I fully agree with Yidit when he says that it'll just cause sex work to become more dangerous by moving it underground.

[–] Saleh@feddit.org -2 points 6 hours ago

I wholeheartedly agree. Especially with the problems of objectification of people, in particular women, having gotten worse again, we should be very careful to assume everything involving a person of legal age to undress for someone else without direct physical threat to be automatically good or liberating.

On the contrary being able to maintain privacy over your body can be an expression of much more freedom as you liberated yourself from objectification.

Irrespective of that these aren't issues that can be tackled through laws like this. Better legal avenues would be banning of sexualized ads, banning of advertisment for cosmetics, cosmetic surgery and the like to minors and the like.

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