this post was submitted on 13 Sep 2023

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"Public spaces belong to the public by right. And the unhoused public, who have the greatest need for public spaces, have therefore the greatest right" (slrpnk.net)

submitted 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) by j_roby@slrpnk.net to c/memes@slrpnk.net

52 comments fedilink hide all child comments

Edit

I kinda made this post out of spite for the fact the most previous post in this community, whose title I quoted/copied, was getting so many downvotes... At the time I posted this, the previous post had about a 30% downvote rate, and it really, really made me mad.

I am relieved tho to see people in the comments here who have real, actual empathy for their fellow humans. Thank you for contributing here.

It blows my mind how normalized it is to hate on those who are struggling. Especially in 20fucking23 when so many of us now are on the verge of it ourselves. Let's be better, everyone - to everyone. I beg you.

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[–] steventrouble@programming.dev 1 points 2 years ago

I'm so sick of people talking about needles whenever homeless people come up. It's slander, plain and simple.

I used to live in Seattle directly next door to a homeless encampment. I used to walk by it every single day for 2 years. I have never ONCE seen a needle on the ground, day or night. You know what I did see a bunch of? People claiming that there were needles everywhere, without a shred of evidence.

[–] moog@lemm.ee 1 points 2 years ago (2 children)

i dont mind letting people use public areas as a place to stay for the night. but its not just a place to stay for them. its a place to do drugs, shit and piss all over the place, steal from and harrass and assault everyone around them, and let their trash pile up and attract pests. its a huge problem where i am and these people are fucking terrifying to be around. like, i dont want to be inhumane to anyone but where do we draw the line?

[–] punkisundead@slrpnk.net 1 points 2 years ago

, i dont want to be inhumane to anyone but where do we draw the line?

Imo we draw the line when someone who wants to be housed is threatened with being houseless and provide them with housing. Providing housing first is also the best way to deal with all the issues connected to being houseless like drug use, trauma from violence, mental health issues, etc

Imo the line has been crossed long ago and gets crossed every day and its important to keep in mind when trying to find solutions that are more like band aids on a broken system.

[–] ondoyant@beehaw.org 1 points 2 years ago

they are alive, so they need to shit and piss. they consume things, so they will create trash. if they are addicted to drugs, they need a place to do them. if we don't provide for people public restrooms, public trash receptacles, and places to do drugs safely, they will do them in public where you can see them. nothing about any of these behaviors are unique to unhoused people, you just don't see housed folks getting high and shitting in the street because they because have a far more comfortable, safe place to do their private business. you don't see housed people's trash because they have a bin to put it in that takes all the trash to the dump. how are they supposed to do anything different when they have nowhere else to go?

this whole antipathy towards people on the street makes me so fucking angry. they can't go anywhere else. they have to keep all of their belongings out on the sidewalk, they have to shit on the fucking street, they have no other options but to live every moment of their lives in a public place, and we pass judgement on them when it doesn't look pretty. these are human beings you're talking about, not pests, not monsters, they're people that you're watching live in abject poverty, and all you can muster up is fear and disgust. its disgraceful.

[–] blazera@kbin.social 1 points 2 years ago

Youtuber i seen with a trend of stealth camping in urban locations, had a video of camping overnight in the middle of a roundabout with a lot of shrubbery. And it had kind of a survival horror feel with cops patrolling around, and i remembered...this guy existing in a public space at night shouldnt be this terrifying or feel so taboo.

[–] 257m@lemmy.ml 1 points 2 years ago

I also don't think people realize how much more space efficient tent cities are. If they buy a giant ass suburban that has a driveway half the size of the house and backyard of perfectly manicured grass that no one walks on it brings house prices up. If do actually want them to start getting off the street try your best to support them and be a good person. If not leave them the fuck alone and atleast don't make their lives more difficult than it already is.

[–] Five@slrpnk.net 1 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

"We make the community by defending it: Calling police on people that don’t have a house is a violent act to those seeking shelter in the community they belong to."

[–] j_roby@slrpnk.net 1 points 2 years ago

https://slrpnk.net/post/2172321

[–] pinkdrunkenelephants@sopuli.xyz 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

It's not actually homelessness people have a problem with, it's drug addiction.

[–] can@sh.itjust.works 1 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

Then surely those same people are working to destigmatize it and provide help right?

Right?

[–] punkisundead@slrpnk.net 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Honestly some of these comments really dont fit to the solar punk ideals and should get removed.

Especially because land squatting, building low tech communes and working together on problems is what happens in many of those camps and thats just so solar punk to me.

[–] nonailsleft@lemm.ee 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

I don't really think injecting fentanyl in a tent on the sidewalk should be classed as 'building a low tech commune'

[–] stabby_cicada@slrpnk.net 0 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

Nope nope nope nope nope. How do you know what communities and organizations the people in the tents belong to? Or how they've organized their network of tents and mutual aid, what relationships they have with nearby homeowners and business owners, how they gather and share resources and make decisions?

Squatters and the unhoused routinely, out of necessity, form partnerships and communities with other unhoused and insufficiently housed people. We'd call those communities "communes" if they were made of rich white people owning homes. And yeah, people in those communities use drugs just like people who own houses do.

Thinking more deeply about it, I think you've identified by example one of the many ways neoliberal ideology encourages discrimination against unhoused people. Neoliberalism teaches us that every unhoused person is an individual whose individual choices are to blame for his low social and economic status. So we assume unhoused people are alone, that they don't belong to communities, that they have no family or social support, that they don't have a network of mutual aid - even though, when someone is unhoused, having networks of mutual aid are even more important than they are for people with secure housing. And that lets us dismiss the unhoused as people without social connections who only care about their personal self interest.

But no, that dude in the tent shooting up fent probably is part of a commune. He meets with other unhoused people to pool money and buy food or take advantage of free meals at the local gurdwara or use a gym membership to take a shower. He advises newly homeless people, he seeks advice from elders in the community, he hangs out outside his tent or at a local meeting spot and chats with other community members. He's part of a network of mutual aid that shares intellectual and social and financial resources to help each other in their disadvantaged circumstances. And if he's not in a network of mutual aid which fits the definition of a commune, it's not because he can't be, but because he chooses not to be.

Unhoused people are not animals. They are humans. That means they communicate with other humans. And that means the unhoused form the same networks of politics and society and economics and mutual aid as everyone else.

[–] nonailsleft@lemm.ee 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Well I could reply to your wall point by point but I guess this is the major one we'd stay in disagreement on

people in those communities use drugs just like people who own houses do

Have you ever done fentanyl?

[–] steventrouble@programming.dev 1 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

Now see, what you've done there is called a fallacy, and what that means is that your argument is not very good. Try again! I'm sure you'll get 'em next time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quoting_out_of_context

[–] Bluescluestoothpaste@sh.itjust.works 0 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

You don't need to be an empathetic holistic person to get behind free housing for the homeIess. If you're a truly selfish and purely economically oriented person, then you have to admit giving the homless free homes is economically the best solution for all involved. Alternatives include the taxpayer eating the cost of all the damage they do seeking shelter and survival, or paying a ton of money to police to violently deal with them.

If you prefer those to giving them housing, you're choosing options that are more cruel and more costly -- I don't understand how that makes sense and yet plenty of people seem to choose that.

[–] poVoq@slrpnk.net 1 points 2 years ago

Because many people perceive homelessness as a proxy for moral failings (such as drug abuse) worthy of punishment.

Of course this is rarely the full picture or even true at all, but we need to get people to understand that this is not a problem that can be solved by punishing people.

[–] Seaguy05@lemmy.world 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

I disagree... public space is our space. No one's need is greater than anyone else's. The homeless need help, the pubic space that we use to get to the store, play with our children, buff highway noise is not the place to get that. Now, I'm not saying financially penalizing or jailing them are the only alternatives but safe camping/RV spots with access to access social services, Wi-Fi, gather for ac/heater, etc seems like a better approach.

[–] rockSlayer@lemmy.world 1 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

I'd rather we just give them housing and a support network to prevent homelessness in the first place. Until then, homeless people have a right to access third spaces for as long as they don't have a living space.

[–] HRDS_654@lemmy.world -1 points 2 years ago

I'm fine with this in theory, but in practice the homeless/unhoused don't care whether the property is private or not. I have witnessed them trying to set up tents in people's yards multiple times. Not even big yards, we are talking condo yards.

[–] FabledAepitaph@lemmy.world -1 points 2 years ago (2 children)

I would be cool with chill people setting up tents for a day or two or at night or whatever. But who's going to be picking the used heroin needles up out of the grass and wrangling the drug dealers and gang members when they start showing up? The reason peole don't want tent villages is this, not because they simply hate the "unhoused".

[–] steventrouble@programming.dev 1 points 2 years ago

Don't pretend like you've ever seen a needle on the ground. People that say stuff like that are too scared to even walk near a homeless camp, let alone look at the ground while you do so.

[–] Ixoid@lemm.ee 1 points 2 years ago

Making some pretty out there assumptions about the kind of people who are homeless, my dude...

[–] Canis_76@feddit.nl -1 points 2 years ago

Public spaces typically have intended uses. When those spaces aren't used for what they are intended, something needs to change. When the homeless set up 1000 survival spaces in a public park... the rest of us should suffer because of their bad decisions/luck? Use your energy to make a difference instead of an ineffectual post. Vote in better policy makers.

[–] Old_Dude@lemmy.world -1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

If you agree with this, you've never seen public spaces taken over by homeless.

[–] tacosplease@lemmy.world 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Perhaps it would make us want to... help them better.

[–] Old_Dude@lemmy.world -1 points 2 years ago (2 children)

It does, but helping is not giving them free reign over public spaces.

[–] toaster@slrpnk.net 1 points 1 year ago

Yeah! Let's kick them out of public spaces... wait a minute.

[–] tacosplease@lemmy.world 1 points 2 years ago

I agree. But by allowing them to be in public spaces we're giving some squeak to an otherwise unnoticed wheel. Maybe then it actually gets the grease it needs.

Also... would you want to live in a tent in the park? Do you think they want that? Nobody wants to live their life that way. These are people without anywhere to go. Should they sleep in dumpsters just so we don't have to look at them?

[–] The_Terrible_Humbaba@slrpnk.net -1 points 2 years ago (2 children)

For a "Solar punk" instance, this community seems to have very little of the "punk" aspect, and in these comments it sounds more like a "Solar rich liberal" place.

The amount of slander towards homeless people, the propagating of stereotypes, and the removal of personhood in these comments really blows my mind. There are even people defending that homeless people should be sent to prison and have their life managed for them; others claim how it's their own fault they are homeless; some cry about "private property".

And of course a bunch of people claiming this isn't a final/permanent solution, and so it shouldn't be done... as if to say, until we come up with better solutions, these people should just go without shelter. What is really a priority to them, is not having to look at homeless people.

In a nutshell: "It's their own fault! They're probably all heroin addicts anyway. Someone else should come up with and implement better solutions, but in the meantime I don't want to have to see and walk by people who don't have a home!". A Solar ~~Punk~~ Neolib community.

[–] Five@slrpnk.net 2 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

When a post gets enough points, it does the Lemmy equivalent of "hitting the front page" and comment character becomes indistinguishable from a brigade. Most of the people commenting on this post aren't from the Slrpnk.net instance. Check out the locals who are though -- excellent people every one -- @stabby_cicada@slrpnk.net, @poVoq@slrpnk.net, @punkisundead@slrpnk.net, @j_roby@slrpnk.net. These people are making this instance great.

Also, a shout out to the the nice people from other instances - I see you, and you are awesome: @Timecircleline@sh.itjust.works, @ondoyant@beehaw.org, @257m@lemmy.ml, @TheFriar@lemm.ee, @Maeve@kbin.social, @rockSlayer@lemmy.world, @Gormadt@lemmy.blahaj.zone - thanks for contributing.

[–] j_roby@slrpnk.net 1 points 2 years ago

Thank you for taking the time to make some personal acknowledgements, especially for those who are visiting from other instances.

You deserve one yourself too. Your contributions here help make this place great as well.

[–] HorseWithNoName@lemm.ee 1 points 2 years ago

Yes, it's gross. And it's always something like, "oh I think everyone should have a home, but..."

[–] Son_of_dad@lemmy.world -1 points 2 years ago (3 children)

Everyone is ok with homeless in tents till they set up shop in your street

[–] TheFriar@lemm.ee 3 points 2 years ago (2 children)

If someone sets up a spot to sleep and keep their stuff close to your house, try talking to them like a person. I live in the City, so there are plenty of people I see all the time. Sometimes they ask for help, sometimes we just talk. I help when I can, but I also say no when I can’t. I stand outside and talk to some of the struggling people close to me for a while sometimes. They’re just people

[–] j_roby@slrpnk.net 1 points 2 years ago

We need more of this right here in the world. Thank you for being an empathetic and decent human.

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[–] j_roby@slrpnk.net 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

See, this is part of the issue. Too many people recognize the problems, but as soon as any solutions to those problems inconvenience them, any empathy for those problems then goes right out the window....

[–] Son_of_dad@lemmy.world 1 points 2 years ago

I remember this guy in my city set up fake signs for the opening of a new homeless shelter in one of the wealthier and more liberal neighbourhoods in the city, where the "provide for the homeless!" Crowd tend to live.

The neighborhood was up in arms at the idea of the shelter getting set up in THEIR neighborhood. There's a video about it around somewhere.