this post was submitted on 13 Feb 2025
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According to the article the females don't fare any better either.
I didn't know this about octopi, what's the point, evolutionarily, to self destruct after reproducing?
There is no point, evolution is about successful reproduction and everything else is just random chance.
If a evolutionary tweak happens that gives your off spring better chances, but your arms fall off after sex then it'll probably perpetuate.
Unless your species is a K Strategist where taking care of your offspring/group is essential.
But that's just moving the goalpost, so to speak. You've just built a different parenting framework that requires you to stick around. You're still hunting the same goal: self sufficient offspring
(Not negging you)
True, I'm just being pedantic and pointing out that "reproduce and that's it" isn't the case for some species.
Some species carry it on to "reproduce and ensure your offspring reproduces too."
Just goon forever
Gooners win again
Wouldn't it make them easier to he hunted by prey or just die from not being careful
People with dementia can end up getting themselves fatally injured so I don't see an octopus can't
So I don't see how it's beneficial to help them survive
It's not but, the evolutionary goal is compete.
There's no way for the octopus to pick a mate with out the side effect, so the lack of post-nut clarity continues through the generations.
Essentially their entire mating cycle is what causes this. They've got a gland behind the eye that puts them into mating mode and once it starts it never turns off until they overdose on sex hormone.
Most cephalopods are voracious hunters that eat and eat to grow big and then once mating mode switches on they just focus on mating, which results in a shit ton of babies. Every step of that cycle has an extremely high mortality rate resulting in strong selection pressures for the best of every phase. When they do something, they go big.
Holy shit what a way to go.
Get horny > have sex > orgasm > keep orgasming > die of too much orgasm
Living the dream.
I wonder what would happen if you removed the gland? How long could they live and how big could they get?
They've done that and they lived twice as long. https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1977/12/01/octopus-surgery-has-a-surprising-end-longer-life/a8fabbce-0d76-400f-a9b4-e95b8b93094e/
Fascinating!
There's a specific life history strategy called semelparity, which is what you're describing (breeding once then dying). To my understanding, this is incentivized if the chances of getting a second attempt to breed are too low, and so it becomes more evolutionarily advantageous to simply go all out on the first attempt
Thanks, one solid answer! It could be that it used to be an advantage at some point and now it's just perpetuated
To be clear, it's still an advantage and for the ones that it isn't they don't die after mating. Most cephalopods are both predators and prey that life cycle results in a very high mortality rate. If you don't hunt enough, you fail and if you get eaten you fail. The deep cold water ones though, tend to have to live longer due to less prey and have fewer predators so they tend to not die after mating.
Semelparity: “Fuck it, I’m gonna nut to death”
A bit similar process in sea-dwelling salmons: migrating from salt water into fresh water (quite a big metabolic challenge in itself), traveling up rapids to suitable spawning places (often a long and arduous journey)... after they've accomplished that, their chances of returning alive are quite low. So they mostly die. But their close relatives, river-dwelling trouts spawn many times in life, because their migration isn't as costly.
I would suspect that something in how octopuses reproduce has an element of "return being costly" - it could be a metabolic return to the feeding and growing state instead of a physical return.
To prevent decrepit politicians who already had their chance from usurping the resources of the next generation and pulling up the ladder behind them?
You know... Octopus politicians
Hmmm.... Looking at Cthulu and not sure what to think about here
Stayed a virgin long enough for the wizard powers to really kick in.
Pro: they die shortly after mating
Con: they leave hundreds of nepobabies
Not everything in evolution ends up having a point. So long as a problem does not impact the propagation of children it can end up moving forward to the next generation.
I would guess that if there is an Evolutionary reason, it's probably that octopi with this drive reproduced More than octopi that didn't.
They reproduce so much because they forget they had already done it and believe they need to do it or else
Evolution doesn't care what happens to you after reproduction because you've already passed on your genes at that point
I mean, yes, but if you're not a vegetable afterwards, you will have more chances to reproduce. Therefore passing on your genes more
Evolution doesn't make deliberate, strategic choices. Random mutations result in new behaviors/properties that may or may not be beneficial, and selection removes those mutations that prevent reproduction from the gene pool. Not every mutation will be beneficial, but as long as it's not harmful enough to stop reproduction, it can persist.
If there were two groups of octopuses, one with the self-destructive behavior and one without, then there would be pressure from competition. In that situation, your point would have more of an impact. But without that pressure, there's nothing to drive the selection. And the mutation won't occur just because it would be helpful for it to do so - it's random.
At least, that's how I understand it. I'm not a biologist or anything.
yes, that's the point I'm trying to reinforce. There has to be "a reason" that getting stupider after mating is a succesful trait, otherwise it wouldn't be there.
The question that was asked was: what is the reason? So far I've only seen speculation in this thread
As was said before: The genes are already passed onto the next generation. It doesn't matter if the parents become stupid now. There's no evolutionary advantage to become more or less stupid at this point.
It became like it is now by some random chance(s).
SkaveRat is addressing my original question: I'm asking if there is an advantageous reason for this phenomenon. You seem to suggest it's a spandrel at best, and fair enough, that could be the answer. It probably is a spandrel, I also believe that.
However spandrels usually don't reduce future chances or reproduction, and this one clearly does, so I was asking perhaps there is an advantage to this feature (not a spandrel then). Or at least an explanation for its existence from a genetic perspective, ie. the genes triggering the self destructing behavior are also the same ones responsible for a major survivability feature.
The reason behind spandrels existing can sometimes be explained other than "random", as it happens with the human chin for example - apparently someone figured out it's physically impossible for a chin not to appear if you are deforming maxillary bones to flatten into a face.
So far here nobody knows for sure about the octopus, and I gather it's because science doesn't yet have a consensus on the matter. But everyone has been quick to assure me it's just random and that there isn't anything else to it without any scientific backing.
I suspect the responses you're getting stem from the original phrasing:
The question has an implicit claim that there IS a point, which people are rightly pointing out is not necessarily the case (as you have acknowledged). It certainly is an interesting question to wonder if there could be some benefit anyway, so it would probably have helped to frame it that way.
Not saying anyone is required to meet any kind of bar in the level of discourse in a casual online forum, just an observation of cause and effect, for what it's worth.
Fair enough
that's not how it works.
It is more advantageous to have more than 1 shot at spreading your genes than having only a single one.
Yes, your genes will be spread with just reproducing once, but they will be even more spread if you have a long and productive live with even more offspring
The YT channel primer actually made a video about rougjly this topic recently
Tell that to all the animals that only have one shot. There are quite a lot of them and usually they all lay thousands of eggs.
Probably the most well known of them is the salmon. Only about 5% of them survive the procreation after the salmon run (of those salmon species that actually do the run).
yes, and that is in disagreement with my post how?
There doesn't have to be reason for it to help, all that matters is that there isnt a sufficient enough of am evolutionary hinderance to prevent reproduction. The octopi reproduced, so their traits pass on.
yeah but octopi are intensely successful hunters. this may be either a mechanism that helps prevent resource scarcity, or it could prevent parent/offspring mating
They also lay tens of thousands of eggs at once.
Take that point and explain humans living to about 100 after breeding from 20 to 40, and kids taking ~15 years to become good enough
Human tribes doing well is good for making children successful, old women have much better skills in finding whatever plant matter they're gathering, old men are better at tracking and stalking prey. The old people teach the young.
We evolved towards longer lifespans because groups that live longer survive and continue better
whatever works...
I read that it's so the parents don't compete for resources with their young, helping to support the young's survival
Fair, another possibility, thanks for the answer
Reproduction is the goal. It could be as simple as giving the young a chance to out compete their r****ded parents for limited food.