Zelensky should agree: he can always renege after the war, claiming he did what he had to do to stay independent like the Finns did after WW2 to justify inviting the Nazis in, and pointing to Trump himself as the quintessential untrustworthy ruler who readily goes back on his word.
this post was submitted on 11 Feb 2025
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Also what Russia did to Ukraine after Ukraine gave up its nuclear weapons in exchange for a pledge to never invade.
Zelensky should. Trump makes trade deals and then renege's on them all the time.
renege’s
The art of the deal
Can you elaborate on what the Finns did exactly? Or point me in the right direction. I just want to understand the parallel.
Basically Finland asked for military assistance from Nazi Germany to keep the Soviet Union at bay. German troops fought the Soviets on Finnish soil. And then when the war turned sour for Germany, Finland turned against Germany and kicked them out - more or less at the behest of the United States.
Finland's problem has always been its gigantic aggressive neighbor to the east - and it still has that problem today. It explained its cozy relationship with Nazi Germany by the need to keep a bigger problem at bay. And it was completely true and completely rational.
But what was also true - and I know it for a fact because I talked to Finns who lived through the war and housed Germans - is that the German troops behaved impeccably in Finland and left a very good impression, even today. The Finns aren't too proud of that but it's a fact, and it's even understandable from the point of view of individual Finns of the time.
After the war, not wanting to lose a potential ally in the newly-established Cold War, the US sort of accepted Finland's rationale and let it slide. Kind of like they did with France too, which equally deserved a lot more flak than they got.
"The enemy of my enemy is my friend" and all that, and we didn't exactly have many friends to choose from.
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This is, for a sense of scale, more than five times the total value of everything the US has sent to Ukraine since February 2022
The entire gdp of the country is under $200B. Lol he's asking for resources worth over 2.5X the value of the entire country 🤡
They have like 25 Trillion of estimated rare earth minerals under their feet and most of it is on the border of Russian controlled territory.
If they make a deal to allow US companies to extract it and get security guarantees for a decade or so from the US, it might actually be a decent deal. (Assuming that the US won't randomly turn on you because they are batshit crazy)
Yeah I get that but it just sounds absurd and douchey when you think about it. The equivalent would sorta be if someone agreed to help us if we gave them $67 Trillion worth of oil gas and wood in return.
And just from a morality/ethical standpoint it's goofy. Only help someone if they let you bend them over and rob them blind (I get it's a more nuanced than that but still, it just feels slimy)
Well, there also is a big amount of rebuilding to be done and no matter who would be in the US government, there would be a strong push for the rebuilding to end in factories, apartments and farms to be owned by US investors. Also the US has a history of combining "security" with resource access.
In this regards Ukraine is getting fucked by receiving less aid than is needed to push back, but just enough to cause maximal attrition to Russia. And using the vast destruction caused by a prolonged war, was likely part of the strategy to profit off this war, both for Russia expecting victory and the US/Western Allies expecting Russia to eventually succumb to the attrition.
Now problem is that Russia kept escalating, instead of limiting their losses.
America shows its colours.
It was never freedom, it was money and power all along.
Always has been. Most of the shit they got up to after WW2 violated the human rights of half the planet, was anti-democratic, and imperialistic.
American imperialism mostly halted under Clinton and Obama. The cold war was over and they weren't jingoistic like Bush or Trump.
Even Bush jr wasn't as much imperial as he was militaristic. Iraq and Afghanistan would both have arguably benefited from a time as an American protectorate like Germany or Japan, but W handed over "sovereignty" while the wars were still ongoing.
Trump isn't coherent enough to have an understandable philosophy
Iraq and Afghanistan are nothing like Germany or Japan and if you cannot create a stable government after 20 years of occupation, then there is no indication that more occupation would have done any better.
Frankly the notion that countries being invaded and have masses of their population slaughtered is "for their own benefit" is fascist talk.
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At least they are open about it this time around.
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Isn't this Zelenskyy's original plan that he pitched even before Trump got elected then?
The fourth point of the peace plan is economic: Zelenskyy calls on allied countries to implement “joint investment” plans to exploit Ukraine’s natural resources: “Ukraine has natural resources and critical metals worth trillions of dollars,” he notes. “These include uranium, titanium, lithium, graphite, and other strategic resources, which will either strengthen Russia or Ukraine and the democratic world.”
This is how trump operates.
Postures, bullies, makes loads of noise in order to get what someone else has already agreed to.
Then, cause he was so noisy about it, he gets all the press coverage, and the neo-nazis chock it up as another win
Trump would walk into a coffee shop and threaten to buy out the place and fire everybody if they didn't sell him a cup at the cost they're charging. Then he'd claim victory and boast of his negotiation skills.
And a bunch of idiots would believe it.
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extortion is called "demands" if you are powerful enough
This is a Red alert. What he actually said, outside of the headline.
- They might give us the minerals, they may not
- Ukraine may be Russian in the future, it may not
- either way, we (USA) have all this money in the country, and we're getting it back
we’re getting it back
Only an absolute ass would consider that a loan.
Only an idiot would think that Ukraine would actually have half a trillion dollars worth, and that they'd give it all to the USA even if USA blackmail them here. Zelensky will say lots right now to persuade the orange one. But he also won't be in power after the war to see it through, very few leaders are retained after any way.
Ukrainian neutrality was effectively guaranteed by America, UK, and Russia when they gave up their nukes. And there is also an economic clause to this agreement
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction
Good thing everybody's respecting laws and treaties these days!
good thing the country has tens of millions of absolute asses
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He never intended to support Ukraine. Never. This is just some bullshit to act like he's "Justified" in cutting support. Just wait until he finds an excuse to give it to Russia instead.
Meh, the talks started with Z before elections took place and there were negotiations started August 12th-ish. I think this was Trump just trying to say some absurd number thinking that it would get Ukraine to say that's more than they wanted to give so he could act like he offered to help before giving Russia everything they ask for anytime they ask for anything.
This is what the mafia does. Racketeering in exchange for protection... from itself (=in this case, Russia)
Trump has larped as a mobster for most of his life.
What a cunt
The entire war has always been about their resources
Blackmailer in chief.
I wish the EU was in a position to make a better offer.
It could deliver more military support. But the political system, which I'd like to keep btw, doesn't allow a switch to war economy.
People like their social security, culture support and education and don't want tax raises. Politicians can't do what they want without losing support of the voters. And then there are the agendas of the many political parties in many countries...
It is, it just doesn't have the will to do so at the moment.
I hope they muster their political capital to back Ukraine.
Every new press photo makes him look more and more like a 60s Batman villain. Louie the Lilac vibes.
Wouldn't be funny if Russia interjected "Hey, we have rare earths. Want some?"
So giving the US a real stake in the security of a non-NATO state is the worst thing in history now? How is this not a win-win for everyone except the military industrial complex who wants to see nothing but constant, bloody war?
"worst thing in history", no.
"Terrible and exploitative, and untrustworthy besides"? Yes.
It has the added bonus on being exactly the thing Russia invaded Ukraine over.
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