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TLDR - what’s the question mark in the following scale

Cult(-1)……………….Religion(0)……………….????(+1)

Long version (a.k.a my stupid mind’s question that is keeping me awake):

My understanding of cult is a group of people with an absurd or even possibly nefarious belief system. Like something negative.

By that definition I would put religion in the middle (though a majority of it leans towards the cult side). A group of people that is very serious about what they believe in, no matter how illogical it is.

So with this understanding what would you call the positive side ? A group of people coming together to have a tradition and belief system just for the fun of it ? Is there such thing ?

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[–] Doc_Crankenstein@slrpnk.net 6 points 11 hours ago* (last edited 11 hours ago)

Your scale is off. Religions and cults are the same thing. The only difference is how accepting society is of them. There is no third option.

[–] Angry_Autist@lemmy.world 2 points 9 hours ago

an atheistic commune

[–] Pandemanium@lemm.ee 20 points 1 day ago

Not everything has an opposite. That is a trap of binary thinking.

[–] blargle@sh.itjust.works 24 points 1 day ago (1 children)

I'll answer your question with two more questions:

What's the opposite of a rat king? What's the opposite of an ant mill?

Also I have to question your whole premise of the relationship between religion and cult. Where a cult is the bad kind of something and a religion is the neutral, default kind.

A religion is just the final form of a successful cult that got big enough and old enough that it no longer needs to take the drastic "cult-like" measures to restrict its members and separate them from society- because it has thoroughly infiltrated and colonizied that society to such an extent that being born into that society is enough.

[–] josefo@leminal.space 3 points 9 hours ago

I know what you mean, but this is a fun exercise. The opposite of a Rat King clearly is a Cat Peasant. The opposite of an ant mill is trickier, there is no such machine that recomposes flour to make whole grains again, reversing the milling process, but the next similar thing would be making bread, so I pick Thermite Bakery.

If cults need to protect their members and beliefs from society and laws to survive, and with religions both support each other, then the opposite of an cult would be a society that needs to protect their members and laws from beliefs, taking drastic measures to separate their members from said beliefs. I guess some sort of atheistic authoritarian state would be the opposite, on your scale. So, North Korea? It doesn't feel quite right because those authoritarian states depend on a cult of personality. Maybe some technocratic AI state? I don't know if there is something simpler I'm missing.

The other way of thing it would be, the beliefs organization growing bigger and shallowing the society in that third stage, so people need to protect themselves from the big theocratic apparatus, taking drastic measures to restrict their members and separate them from the big theocracy, living in communities, farming and reading philosophy and cultivating science, educating each other? This is somewhat similar to the setting in V for Vendetta. Also reminds me of what people do in some places dominated by Islamic theocracy, a very cult like way of gathering in secret at houses, sharing banned books, and literally risking their lives for even discussing such things at their homes.

But I agree with you, OP needs to define better the difference perceived between cults and religions, so we can extrapolate a better answer.

[–] some_guy@lemmy.sdf.org 5 points 23 hours ago

An individual who thinks and acts rationally and who doesn't try to manipulate others.

[–] Grandwolf319@sh.itjust.works 91 points 1 day ago (4 children)

Philosophy debate club with no membership

[–] tetris11@lemmy.ml 15 points 1 day ago (1 children)

I actually think you've nailed the task with this

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[–] Botzo@lemmy.world 7 points 1 day ago (2 children)

I was made treasurer of the philosophy club by emailing the list at college to join. We met one time because the president and VP were excited someone joined.

There were no funds to manage.

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[–] iMastari@lemmy.world 21 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

What's the difference between a cult and a religion?

About 100 years.

[–] Zier@fedia.io 7 points 1 day ago

Based on maga, I would say 8 years.

[–] faltryka@lemmy.world 38 points 1 day ago (6 children)

Religion and cult is basically the same thing with different connotative subtext.

[–] LillyPip@lemmy.ca 17 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (11 children)

The only difference between religions and cults is the size.

[–] shalafi@lemmy.world 10 points 1 day ago
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[–] cam_i_am@lemmy.world 20 points 1 day ago (6 children)

Community.

They're all groups of people with some kind of shared purpose or values. Cults are harmful and power based. Communities are helpful and consent-based. Religions can fall either way, or somewhere in the middle.

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[–] LordWiggle@lemmy.world 7 points 1 day ago

The opposite of an oppressing group believing in farytales is atheism. It's weird there's a name for not believing bullshit, but there it is. Every religion is a cult, they are just of different scales.

[–] CanadaPlus@lemmy.sdf.org 12 points 1 day ago

A cult is just a religion that's too small to have sects and too young to have legitimacy.

When people started worshiping a guy nailed to a torture device and said he was God, the Romans thought they were lunatics, because that's genuinely unsettling. The eating his body thing doesn't help either. It's just that they won.

[–] SplashJackson@lemmy.ca 4 points 1 day ago

Normal society

[–] Libra@lemmy.ml 13 points 1 day ago

Your scale is off there.. it should probably be more like: cult(-100)...religion(-80).................atheism(0).................?'

A group of people that is very serious about what they believe in, no matter how illogical it is.

It's pretty easy to invert that statement: a group of people that is very unserious about what they believe in? That would be folks like DIscordians, the Church of the SubGenius, Pastafarians, etc.

[–] weariedfae@sh.itjust.works 3 points 1 day ago

ITT: no cult scholars. I am not one either.

I watch a lot of Knitting Cult Lady's content and I've read her book. From that I have a pretty good idea of what a cult is, which is an extreme form of group.

So I guess the opposite of a cult would be a solitary individual.

One point I keep seeing in these comments is religion. Religion isn't a cult, it's an idea. That ideology can be used by cults, but the idea itself isn't a cult. You can believe the idea all by yourself you don't HAVE to be part of the group.

Yes [insert religious group you're thinking of] is probably a cult. But it isn't one because of the idea, it's one because of controlling behavior and exploited labor and a bunch of other reasons.

[–] Kolanaki@pawb.social 18 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (21 children)

Atheism.

Technically speaking, all religions are cults. The definition of "cult" is just an organized practice of religion.

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[–] kruhmaster@sh.itjust.works 16 points 1 day ago

Everything doesn't have to have an opposite, you know.

[–] zonnewin@feddit.nl 7 points 1 day ago

Intellectual freedom, with an appreciation of philosophy and scientific inquiry.

[–] LockheedTheDragon@lemmy.world 3 points 1 day ago* (last edited 14 hours ago)

I think of cults as more of systems of control. MLMs, jobs (Theranos), large-group awareness training (nxivm), political groups (Maga), exercise groups (CrossFit), fandoms, book clubs, families, online groups, etc can all be cults.

I suggest the podcast IndoctriNation⁠ by Rachel Bernstein to see many ways these "systems of control" as she calls them can manifest.

I personally think that cult behavior is just normal behavior taken to the extreme so there really isn't an opposite. Maybe being alone with no relationships.

The various types of groups we are on family, friends, work, recreational, etc have various controls on how you act and speak. This isn't necessarily bad. You probably want to be a little different with family than with your hobby group. I explained the broader meaning of cults to my Dad and he said the Marines have those aspects. I think an important part to know if a group is probably fine is if you can leave with no issues. If there are consequences to leaving the group that's a huge red flag.

I suggest looking at the BITE Model of Authoritarian Control. Which is a useful tool to check if a group is a cult. You can read up on problems with this tool, but it's still a good starting point.

Edit: No one joins a cult. They join groups for positive reasons and then those groups either turn into cults or as they get deeper into the group the control parts are introduced.

We all probably brushed up against cults without knowing. You could go to an exercise/spiritual/hobby/other group and what you don't know is if you had gotten more involved and took the special classes, or volunteered and became a part of the in group you could have become a part of a cult.

[–] Allero@lemmy.today 5 points 1 day ago (1 children)
[–] CoolThingAboutMe@aussie.zone 3 points 1 day ago (1 children)

I think this is closest to correct. If the metric is that cult members are kind of duped to go along with group think and philosophy is the practice of questioning belief and thought processes.

That positions philosophy as the meta-analysis end of the scale and cults as the automatic.

[–] LockheedTheDragon@lemmy.world 1 points 14 hours ago

A philosophy group could turn into a cult. A lot of cults start out as going against whatever everyone else is doing/thinking.

[–] Lumisal@lemmy.world 1 points 1 day ago
[–] TheDrunkard@lemmy.world 11 points 1 day ago
[–] Zier@fedia.io 5 points 1 day ago
[–] Kissaki@feddit.org 2 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

There are different kinds of cults. Cult is a different thing from religion. It doesn't belong on the same axis. But we can continue the thought if we define it as religious cult.

The scale is about excessive binding, control, rituals, restrictions, belief systems. If the left is the extreme, then towards the right we have weaker restrictions upon the belief system. The belief becomes weaker, and the beliefs do not have to restrict other and own people's activities and beliefs.

Religion in the middle makes no sense. It should be the label on the scale. "Religious extremism" or similar. Maybe narrow, restrictive, totalitarian.

I don't know specific terminology for the right side. Maybe open or unrestrictive practice of religion.

[–] AugustWest@lemm.ee 4 points 1 day ago

Defining characteristics of a cult: inside information and ritual, seperation from others and non believers, words and speech that are internalized and often only understood by cult members, heiradchy - often to one person or small group, loss of self, loss of independence, removal of physical items or required clothing, and generally there is an eventuality that those in power will begin abuse that is often sexual.

Now, the actual beliefs have nothing to do with it. Where a religion ranks in the scheme is debatable.

[–] ininewcrow@lemmy.ca 10 points 1 day ago

Cults and religion are the same. The only thing that differentiate them is time. If you have a systematic set of illogical beliefs that have been around for a few years or decades or even just one lifetime, it's more likely to be called a cult. Give that group a lot more time and it will be called a religion.

As for your question .... I don't think it's anything the opposite of religion / cult but rather which belief system. I think as humans, we will always come up with some sort of belief system because we will always want to. We're just wired that way.

And to me the best belief system is one where we value one another no matter what, who, where, why or how. That includes honoring, respecting even those who don't believe what you do. A belief system where we honor all life, human, animal and organic. A belief system where we do our best not to harm one another or any life around us.

If we could that, then following a religion wouldn't be so bad because the belief system would be used to actually benefit all life.

[–] neidu3@sh.itjust.works 6 points 1 day ago

Cult is just what the big congregation calls the small congregation

[–] faltryka@lemmy.world 9 points 1 day ago (2 children)
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