Ask Lemmy

If you didn’t want help, and someone showed up and started doing stuff, saying, “Hey I’m helping,” I doubt most people would want that help. Tl;dr you can only help those that want help or those that are open to it.

I think the best thing you can do is be supportive, invite them out, and showcase the positive aspects of your life & the life you’d want them to have. It’s not showboating / gloating, but it’s including them & offering them what a wider life might look like. When they want to change, you can be present for them in that moment.

Trying to change people can be such a fool’s errand. I’ve tried to do it with a bunch of friends over the last decade. You can’t move people who don’t want to be moved. You can maybe inspire them for more.

Don't feel bad for them. Stop judging them while believing otherwise. Mind your own business and stop meddling. Consider that you might be engaging in ableism. Be their friend (if they are also friends to you) and enjoy your life with them when the opportunities present themselves. Don't see anything you do as "enabling them" - it's not your job to give them tough love or to intervene in any way, unless they are asking you specifically for help. In that case, it's reasonable to set conditions or limits to the help you may choose to give them.

Not everybody is worried about achieving things in life or living in ways you approve of, their regret isn't guaranteed, and there are always ways for them to start anew and to live with dignity e.g. like the people showcased on the CheapRVLiving YT channel.

Society isn't healthy, so it may be wise to direct your energy towards improving it and encouraging others to do the same. Their level of integration into our incredibly unhealthy society is not a measure of their personal health.

Would try to introduce them to more friends and broaden their social circle.

Tell their food providers if they don't do something now, they'll end up like my 70 year old parents. They just shelled out $16,000 for dental care because my brother who barely graduated high school, has never held a job, and never left the house, has no insurance of any kind. When they die, he'll probably starve to death because I'm not stepping in to help that racist, misogynist, homophobic prick live.

I originally read this as "terminally ill" but my answer doesn't actually change: unplug them.

I dont know the whole situation and it sounds like your trying. My closest parallel is, my friends that are kinda introverted.

I have one in my friend group, that thinks the perfect Friday night is air frying chicken and playing Command and Conquer.

Not that i hate that, but just like any good thing it gets tiresome.

So i sometimes spend time asking around for fun stuff to do on the cheap.

A week ago we drove roughly and hour to a OLD, OLD AS SHIT Drive in movie theater. It was $20 for 2 movies and for as many people as you could cram in a car.

It was honestly really fun, watching horror movies with my friends and just dicking around.

I was really introverted when i was younger and my friend is pretty introverted.

My best tip, is to invite somebody they enjoy hanging with something. Then offer them to join, and make it low stress and no schedule.

Thats how the best times with friends happen.

My friend really wasn't thrilled about going to the movies, but because another friend was going. They wanted to go

We dont go out a whole lot because well shits expensive. But every time they get less introverted, because its not "oh im going somewhere with people i dont like talking to people" its more of "i may not like other people that are gonna be there but my friends are gonna be there"

Heard mentality helps introverts

Working a boring ass shit job doesn't make you less depressed at not doing anything in life

Offering to hang out once in a while is nice. Without going into fancy considerations, it's nice

Do be careful when suggesting specific activities, it can feel like you're telling them what to be (and cause reactance). If you had parents doing it to you, you know the issue

I don't think the "judging" part matters. They are likely to be unhappy at some point in the future, and if you happen to be proposing something different at that time, they might be more interested. This doesn't need to be about judgement or respect, having a way into another life should always be desirable (as long as you're not being an asshole)

note that I am basing this on how I believe I would feel if I was them, and do not have any experience as your "role" here

If you really want to help them expand, offer to take them to a music festival and line up some psychedelics. I've seen it help many online introverts break past mental barriers.

I can see that you care a lot for your friends' well-being and happiness, and are concerned their lifestyle might be harmful for them long term. Instead of going straight into talking with them, you're getting more information so you can do it right. That's very considerate of you and I'm really happy they have such a good friend. Seriously, your friends are lucky to have you.

Bringing up concerns with anyone, especially those close to you, can easily lead to hurt or conflict if the other person misunderstands your motivations and feels misunderstood, criticized, or judged. I want you to succeed if you decide to talk with them because I can see you only want to ensure they can have healthy, fulfilling lives and I'm sure you want them to see the same.

Have you considered looking into any literature on brushing up on communication skills for difficult conversations? If you're open to it, I highly recommend Nonviolent Communication by Marshall Rosenberg. It teaches how to identify and express core motivations and the feelings behind them, learn the same when others speak (even if they aren't initially aware themselves), and work together to address everyone's needs.

Disclaimer: I just used the bog standard Nonviolent Communication method in this comment. Old me would have said something like "you're judging your friends and are gonna piss them off" while having the same core feelings and motivations I felt when I wrote the main comment. NVC helps me figure out my needs and feelings as well as yours, then talk about them without sounding like a judgmental, overly critical douchebag.

Dismantle capitalism so they are free to return to Real Life and stop ignoring reality.

You can lead the horses to water but you can't make them drink. Keep offering to hang out, maybe if you're having a deep conversation ask if this is how they want the rest of their lives to go and if they have ever looked into mental health help (this absolutely may be them struggling to do things and not letting themselves think about that fact). But at the end of the day you can't improve things for them, you can only offer whatever help you can offer, help if they ask for it, and provide a good alternative.

Also, encourage them to take regular walks. It's a really good first step to stopping being a shut in. It involves changing scenery, exercise, and places you around other people. Biking or running would be a next step if they're interested, they can serve as a hobby and cardio and biking can also be a form of transportation around town as well as providing an opportunity to get involved in social rides. Things like that drastically impact mental health

The road to hell is paved with good intention.

Well just ask what their plans are over the next year, if there's anything new they wanted to try, even just like a pet project not even a job.

Lazy is a label people paint others or themselves with. It's not an innate character trait, it can be gained or lost.

Little nudges and brainstorming are fine but I don't think anyone wants someone else's vision of their life pushed on to them. What's more valuable is if you could support them with things they've expressed they want to do.

"Im not judging", proceeds to judge.

These days 25 isn't that old to be living at home given extortionate rent and lack of decent job prospects. So if they had a soul-crushing job they would be "healthy" in your eyes?

Why are you so optimistic/pushy about them becoming wage slaves?

My honest question for you is what you think it means to be doing something meaningful?

Frankly, the world these days are filled with suits working jobs they either hate or you're a dude working a job you like that pays you nothing. We're not really in a place to help people with platitudes about "making a meaningful life" when there's no meaning to be had.

But perhaps it's the absurdist in me who feels this way. For the record, I have an OK programming job, and could probably make more money had I decided to not go into games fwiw.

I think a lot of people felt personally triggered by this.

I'm in this picture and I don't like it

Lol

A bit of a tangent but I wonder if this is becoming more common these days. The "shut-in" phenomena, japanese call them hikikomori. News headlines say it is but i wonder how well they represent reality.

The majority of people live with their parents until around 30 years old these days.

I think it's going to be hard for you to get your friends to care about these kind of things.

I have a couple friends like this. Live with their moms, over 25, never had a job or anything. Only plays games. I feel so bad for them because they don't think they are smart but they definitely are, they just dont spend their time wisely.

If you hadn't stated they were over 25 I would have assumed they were children. Because they sound like children. Someone has enabled this behaviour so that they can live like a child. So maybe taking these enabling factors away is what you can do to help. I don't pretend that's easy.

Have you considered these people don’t consider you to be that important in their own lives? It’s not the job of friends to fix the perceived foibles of their friends, unless a friend actually asks for help.

Friends are just people who enjoy each others company and offer as much or as little emotional support when able/willing. When that stops being the case it’s fine to drift apart.

Also, really take a step back, ‘cause you literally wrote this:

This is a pretty nuanced problem, in my opinion. Here are my thoughts:

1. You're definitely judging them
2. I don't necessarily think it's wrong to judge them, but it would have to be for different reasons than you state. I would judge them for being personally incompatible with the fundamental tenets of society (ie that you contribute to it and act as a good citizen)
3. You can't change the mind of someone who isn't open to change. One of the things you'll need to accept is that most people are only willing to learn from their own mistakes, and a good portion of those aren't even willing to learn from their own mistakes consistently. You will need to wait until they regret their decisions before change can even be possible. And even then be aware that there's a solid chance that they'll still keep doing whatever they've been doing
4. It's good that you're thinking about this, but on the other hand, it's not your responsibility to ensure that your friends have good lives. Your responsibility is to yourself, and if you act as though you have responsibility over other people, you come off as nosy, pushy, bossy. Be careful that you don't confuse advising someone with assuming responsibility over that person.